Don't feel comfortable close to edge of tire

[self_moto]

Hey,

So I have Michelin Power RS, with couple trackdays on them(and couple hundreds of miles on street), this is just after 5 mile day with Z2 (06/23/18) - https://imgur.com/gallery/eDv7rpp. Was running 30/29 cold tire pressure. Was riding in B group, 3.55 best lap looks so (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_rF8lc3AlY)

You'll probably notice small chicken strip on the edge of tire.. the problem is that I don't feel comfortable pushing it to the edge, few times when I tried it felt like tire is about to give up. Some people are saying that's due to tire being overheated causes this feel. I think it can be mostly in my head actually...

What do you think? Is it tire pressure problem or it's all in my head?

Thanks

 

[Aware]

I never had any grip problems with them..

Could be pressure or suspension issue.

 

[johnkol]

So I have Michelin Power RS, with couple trackdays on them(and couple hundreds of miles on street), this is just after 5 mile day with Z2 (06/23/18) - https://imgur.com/gallery/eDv7rpp.

Wear looks fairly smooth, so no major suspension setup or tire issues seem at play here.

Who was providing suspension or tire services that day? Did you talk to either of them?

When you say you didn't feel confident, was the bike doing something you had never felt before? What tires had you been using before you moved to the Michelins, and had you had any problems with them?

FWIW, I have the same bike as you (CBR600RR), same Ohlins suspension, but using Pirelli Rossa Corsa at 30F/25R. I had Dave Moss adjust the suspension and look at tires throughout a track day and the bike feels great.

 

[self_moto]

Wear looks fairly smooth, so no major suspension setup or tire issues seem at play here.

Who was providing suspension or tire services that day? Did you talk to either of them?

When you say you didn't feel confident, was the bike doing something you had never felt before? What tires had you been using before you moved to the Michelins, and had you had any problems with them?

FWIW, I have the same bike as you (CBR600RR), same Ohlins suspension, but using Pirelli Rossa Corsa at 30F/25R. I had Dave Moss adjust the suspension and look at tires throughout a track day and the bike feels great.

On that day I actually didn't do anything with suspension, I had it tuned by Dave Moss on last time I was there (although it was for West side, and temperatures were quite different).

Yeah, I guess I can describe it as something I didn't feel before, it felt like bike starts to move out of me, if that make sense.

I've started trackdays last year on Q3, and then switched to RS... I don't remember had this feel before on Michelin, it either could be - I got rusty (amount of track time this year is quite lower comparing to last one), or something wrong with tire pressure/setup.

So far on my list to experiment with tire pressure and see if it's going to change that "feel". Was thinking to get back to Dunlops, but thinking to postpone, these tires looks okay(ish) to me, so just don't want spend money on new set of tires

 

[othebe]

I usually start my Q3s at 32/30 cold, but my tires (esp rear) first session last weekend (6/24) felt really squirelly and overinflated. Given how hot it was, my PSI's had jumped to around 38-39. I adjusted these down to 34 hot which is where I usually try to end up and things felt a lot better after that. It could have been a lot of factors, temperature and PSI's being one of them... Dave Moss can point you in the right direction if you show him your tires next time. Good luck!

 

[stangmx13]

Stop caring about the edge of the tire. Chicken strips are not an indicator of anything useful. If anything, no chicken strips with slow laptimes is an indicator of poor riding, not the other way around.

Focus on your feelings and try to fix the issue(s). “The bike wanting to move out from under me” isn’t specific enough for me to give a specific recommendation. Can u elaborate?

Generally, I can tell u that your bike will ride A LOT better w the rear axle far back and the forks really long. But that assumes you have good springrates and trail brake deep. Every diff tire model requires diff geometry settings to work optimally. So it’s not surprising u need to change things after switching from Dunlops.

 

[EastBayDave]

Stop caring about the edge of the tire. Chicken strips are not an indicator of anything useful. If anything, no chicken strips with slow laptimes is an indicator of poor riding, not the other way around.

Focus on your feelings and try to fix the issue(s). “The bike wanting to move out from under me” isn’t specific enough for me to give a specific recommendation. Can u elaborate?

Generally, I can tell u that your bike will ride A LOT better w the rear axle far back and the forks really long. But that assumes you have good springrates and trail brake deep. Every diff tire model requires diff geometry settings to work optimally. So it’s not surprising u need to change things after switching from Dunlops.

:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup

 

[stangmx13]

self_moto, I just watched a few laps of the video. there are some riding techniques that u need to fix NOW because u are setting yourself up for a crash.

1. do not accelerate and add lean angle at the same time. more than a few times, u finished braking, started accelerating, then added ~10deg of lean angle to get to your max lean. this == high side. do not do this. wait until you can remove lean angle to start accelerating. (there are some exceptions to this rule, usually only in corners that do not require braking and long fast ones)

2. you are letting off the brakes far too early. brake lightly all the way to the apex and accelerate after. this is related to #1. since u cant accelerate until after u accomplish lots of the turning, ie until after the apex, u should continue braking before it. 5-10% braking increases front grip and decreases your turning radius.

if u fix both of those things, I guarantee u will feel better riding with more lean angle, ie getting to the edge of the tire. #1 will prevent slides that hurt your confidence. #2 will increase tire temp and grip to improve confidence. both will make u faster with less risk, so ull be safer.

 

[self_moto]

self_moto, I just watched a few laps of the video. there are some riding techniques that u need to fix NOW because u are setting yourself up for a crash.

1. do not accelerate and add lean angle at the same time. more than a few times, u finished braking, started accelerating, then added ~10deg of lean angle to get to your max lean. this == high side. do not do this. wait until you can remove lean angle to start accelerating. (there are some exceptions to this rule, usually only in corners that do not require braking and long fast ones)

2. you are letting off the brakes far too early. brake lightly all the way to the apex and accelerate after. this is related to #1. since u cant accelerate until after u accomplish lots of the turning, ie until after the apex, u should continue braking before it. 5-10% braking increases front grip and decreases your turning radius.

if u fix both of those things, I guarantee u will feel better riding with more lean angle, ie getting to the edge of the tire. #1 will prevent slides that hurt your confidence. #2 will increase tire temp and grip to improve confidence. both will make u faster with less risk, so ull be safer.

Awesome feedback! Could you point out to timestamp on video where I does that (adding lean angle and accelerating)? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just do not see/hear that. As for braking, yeah... I know that is a problem, I believe the reason for that is actually lack of proper vision technique (I tend to outbrake myself quite often)

About feel - it's hard to explain, because I never experienced low/high side (besides crash on street, which I remember really vague, due to concussion), so I don't know how exactly loss of traction should feel, but it felt like feedback getting numb I would say. I hope that make sense.

 

[mxrider89]

self_moto, I just watched a few laps of the video. there are some riding techniques that u need to fix NOW because u are setting yourself up for a crash.

1. do not accelerate and add lean angle at the same time. more than a few times, u finished braking, started accelerating, then added ~10deg of lean angle to get to your max lean. this == high side. do not do this. wait until you can remove lean angle to start accelerating. (there are some exceptions to this rule, usually only in corners that do not require braking and long fast ones)

2. you are letting off the brakes far too early. brake lightly all the way to the apex and accelerate after. this is related to #1. since u cant accelerate until after u accomplish lots of the turning, ie until after the apex, u should continue braking before it. 5-10% braking increases front grip and decreases your turning radius.

if u fix both of those things, I guarantee u will feel better riding with more lean angle, ie getting to the edge of the tire. #1 will prevent slides that hurt your confidence. #2 will increase tire temp and grip to improve confidence. both will make u faster with less risk, so ull be safer.

this man knows

 

[fortyonethirty]

Awesome feedback! Could you point out to timestamp on video where I does that (adding lean angle and accelerating)? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just do not see/hear that. As for braking, yeah... I know that is a problem, I believe the reason for that is actually lack of proper vision technique (I tend to outbrake myself quite often)

About feel - it's hard to explain, because I never experienced low/high side (besides crash on street, which I remember really vague, due to concussion), so I don't know how exactly loss of traction should feel, but it felt like feedback getting numb I would say. I hope that make sense.

I only watched for a couple minutes, but 11:06, 11:23, 11:36, and 14:12 stood out to me for the too early on the gas thing. It looked like you were having fun. I would love to try that 5 mile course.

I did notice you over brake some too. You might want to try the no brakes drill some time. It's scary but enlightening.

Robert is definitely right about not worrying about the appearance of a lack of wear near the edge of the tire. Better things to worry about are temperature and wear patterns in the main tread area.

 

[stangmx13]

Awesome feedback! Could you point out to timestamp on video where I does that (adding lean angle and accelerating)? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just do not see/hear that. As for braking, yeah... I know that is a problem, I believe the reason for that is actually lack of proper vision technique (I tend to outbrake myself quite often)

About feel - it's hard to explain, because I never experienced low/high side (besides crash on street, which I remember really vague, due to concussion), so I don't know how exactly loss of traction should feel, but it felt like feedback getting numb I would say. I hope that make sense.

3:06, 3:27, 3:37, 3:43, 4:24, 7:26, 8:04, 8:21, and more.

u turn into corners, start accelerating, then pass the apex. remember, if you are keeping a constant radius AND accelerating, your lean angle must increase even if its slight and u cant see it in the video. but u can see your GPS speed increase and holding a tight line at the same time. that line is also way off. for most turns, the apex is the slowest point of the corner. because of that, your turning radius should be tightest there and wider before and after*. if you are accelerating before and past the apex, your turning radius CANT be tightest where it should be otherwise u crash.

out-brake yourself usually means that u don't brake enough and run deep. overbraking is when u brake too early and/or too hard and let off the brake too soon. both can be hampered by vision problems and where u are looking. but u do it in every corner, so I suspect u just havent developed proper braking technique yet. if it was a problem with only your vision, id think ud brake correctly in at least a few corners. u don't know what u don't know. most riders don't start out knowing that u should brake all the way to most apexes. hell, that whole beginner technique of "brake - throttle - turn" is taught to everyone and its just wrong at the track.

*this is one thing most people don't realize about cornering. no turn should ever be a taken with a constant turning radius 100% of the time. your radius starts out very large (infinite if u were on a straight), decreases to the minimum, then increases back to very large. for long sweepers like T2, your radius is changing prob 40% of the time in the corner. but for anything thats not a sweeper, your radius should be changing the entire time u are in the corner.

 

[self_moto]

3:06, 3:27, 3:37, 3:43, 4:24, 7:26, 8:04, 8:21, and more.

u turn into corners, start accelerating, then pass the apex. remember, if you are keeping a constant radius AND accelerating, your lean angle must increase even if its slight and u cant see it in the video. but u can see your GPS speed increase and holding a tight line at the same time. that line is also way off. for most turns, the apex is the slowest point of the corner. because of that, your turning radius should be tightest there and wider before and after*. if you are accelerating before and past the apex, your turning radius CANT be tightest where it should be otherwise u crash.

out-brake yourself usually means that u don't brake enough and run deep. overbraking is when u brake too early and/or too hard and let off the brake too soon. both can be hampered by vision problems and where u are looking. but u do it in every corner, so I suspect u just havent developed proper braking technique yet. if it was a problem with only your vision, id think ud brake correctly in at least a few corners. u don't know what u don't know. most riders don't start out knowing that u should brake all the way to most apexes. hell, that whole beginner technique of "brake - throttle - turn" is taught to everyone and its just wrong at the track.

*this is one thing most people don't realize about cornering. no turn should ever be a taken with a constant turning radius 100% of the time. your radius starts out very large (infinite if u were on a straight), decreases to the minimum, then increases back to very large. for long sweepers like T2, your radius is changing prob 40% of the time in the corner. but for anything thats not a sweeper, your radius should be changing the entire time u are in the corner.

Great! Thank you for feedback! Awesome explanation on slowest point and how line should be looking.

My understanding of lean + throttle was that you actually steering (i.e. adding lean angle) and opening throttle, and I tried to be very conscious about that, and in most place you've pointed I was accelerating after I was done with steering - basically how it is in book - steer -> crack throttle open and roll it on through turn. So, my thinking was I just don't need to combine both, but I can do one at a time, and since my lean angles aren't crazy I'm able to add more throttle then.

I think my main problem is overbraking(thanks for correcting me on that), as you mention once I learn how to brake properly everything else should get in place.

ps: for 5 mile reference points and general lines I was using Dave Moss's video -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4M7Q7I3mCg&t=206s

 

[Smash Allen]

So, my thinking was I just don't need to combine both, but I can do one at a time, and since my lean angles aren't crazy I'm able to add more throttle then.

it's not good to get into habits that will bite you in the ass as you get faster

it's better to learn habits which will stay valid as you get faster

so, stop adding more speed once you are leaned over. it sucks at first, because you feel slow and you feel like you can add more speed. but don't. you need to learn to not over slow the corner, that's the real issue

currently, you are going 100 mph, brake to 50 mph for the turn, lean over, then accelerate to 75 mph mid corner

instead you should be going 100 mph, brake to 80 mph for the turn, lean over, let off brakes at 75mph at apex location, then immediately get back on the gas

currently you are upsetting the chassis and your lines many times each turn

instead you should be having a smooth chassis and deceleration / weight on the front from when you first touch the brakes until you complete the turn

do as i say, not as i do :laughing this is something that i am working on :ride

 

[stangmx13]

Great! Thank you for feedback! Awesome explanation on slowest point and how line should be looking.

My understanding of lean + throttle was that you actually steering (i.e. adding lean angle) and opening throttle, and I tried to be very conscious about that, and in most place you've pointed I was accelerating after I was done with steering - basically how it is in book - steer -> crack throttle open and roll it on through turn. So, my thinking was I just don't need to combine both, but I can do one at a time, and since my lean angles aren't crazy I'm able to add more throttle then.

I think my main problem is overbraking(thanks for correcting me on that), as you mention once I learn how to brake properly everything else should get in place.

ps: for 5 mile reference points and general lines I was using Dave Moss's video -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4M7Q7I3mCg&t=206s

"roll it on through turn" is the part thats wrong for the track. the originator of the concept didnt even mean it the way that most people think, so theres a lot of confusion around it. IMO, just forget that concept and those terms so we can end the confusion.

heres how I explain and practice it, ignoring braking and focusing on throttle: countersteer - maintenance throttle - wait - remove lean angle - accelerate.
- "countersteer" is self-explanatory
- "maintenance throttle" is prob exactly what u mean by "crack" - add just enough throttle to stop deceleration.
- "wait" is waiting for the exit of the turn, waiting until I can safely remove lean angle and roll on the throttle. a lot of riders forget to wait in corners that need it.
- "remove lean angle" is just a reminder to remove lean angle before or at the same time as you accelerate. u should never start this after starting acceleration.
- "accelerate" is my roll on, which generally takes 1-1.5s to go from maintenance throttle to WOT. WOT in 1-1.5s every time. if u cant, u probably tried to accelerate too soon.

yes, your lean angles aren't crazy at the moment. but its very important to get all this correct ASAP. it'll make u safer now, not later. also, unlearning bad habits for riding takes A LOT more effort than learning them correctly the first time. ask me how I know

notice how smooth all of Dave's inputs are. his addition and removal of lean angle. his addition and removal of throttle. his addition and removal of brake pressure. everything is smooth and executed at the correct time. thats how one goes fast with minimal risk. smooth lean angle changes are one thing I think newer track riders forget to do. also notice how he gets to his max lean angle a little before the apex, waits a tad, then starts removing it.

 

[stangmx13]

currently, you are going 100 mph, brake to 50 mph for the turn, lean over, then accelerate to 75 mph mid corner

instead you should be going 100 mph, brake to 80 mph for the turn, lean over, let off brakes at 75mph at apex location, then immediately get back on the gas

and when u really get moving, some corners stop being "brake - turn - throttle" and become "turn - brake - throttle". T3, T4, T9, & T10 at Laguna are that way for me now. doing that absolutely requires that your brake application is smooth as can be and your body position is already set so that u don't upset the chassis and can load the tires smoothly. it can be a lot faster, so its worth it.

 

[tzrider]

"roll it on through turn" is the part thats wrong for the track. the originator of the concept didnt even mean it the way that most people think, so theres a lot of confusion around it.

We've had some dialog about this in the past but since it comes up here, I'll offer a little clarification: "roll it on through turn" was originally stated as "roll it on through the remainder of the turn." The point that has confused some people is what the "remainder" is; in other words, when does the roll-on start? It begins after two conditions are met:

1. You have set the max lean angle
2. The bike is pointed onto the line you want.

The firs item above is the area of greatest concern for your safety, OP. If you add lean angle while rolling on the gas, the rear tire will spin up easily and the wheelspin tends to be sudden and hard to catch.

You can spin the rear by rolling on too much after the lean angle is already set, but it happens a little more gradually and you can usually save it by just pausing your roll-on and perhaps standing the bike up a little.

- "maintenance throttle" is prob exactly what u mean by "crack" - add just enough throttle to stop deceleration.

My interpretation of "crack" is to open the throttle just enough to take up the drive line slack. You may still be decelerating in this condition. It takes a small amount of roll-on to maintain the speed you have. To best stabilize the bike, you may pick up a couple of MPH in the corner. This doesn't necessarily mean you will add lean angle; in practical terms, it means your line widens a very small amount.

Using the throttle this way stabilizes the bike. Real acceleration begins where you begin to take away lean angle.

The main point from a safety perspective is: Finish getting the bike leaned before you open the throttle.

 

[DannoXYZ]

Another idea often presented in many schools is to stay within your comfort zone and work on technique. If you're feeling uncomfortable, you're going too fast. Slow down to where you are comfortable and work on optimizing lines, picking and hitting markers, throttle-control, etc. When you get those things down, more speed and comfort is automatic.

 

[stangmx13]

thnx for the clarification Andy

To best stabilize the bike, you may pick up a couple of MPH in the corner. This doesn't necessarily mean you will add lean angle; in practical terms, it means your line widens a very small amount.

Using the throttle this way stabilizes the bike. Real acceleration begins where you begin to take away lean angle.

IMO, this is counterproductive to riding on the track as fast as possible. with a properly setup bike, one shouldn't need to create extra stability with the throttle because like u said, it sacrifices the line. if I need more mid corner stability, I change my setup, not my throttle input. my largest inputs (braking) do the opposite actually - I introduce instability to get the thing to turn.

so, my goal for "maintenance throttle" is not to stabilize the bike - its to do nothing while waiting for the exit of the corner.

 

[tzrider]

IMO, this is counterproductive to riding on the track as fast as possible. with a properly setup bike, one shouldn't need to create extra stability with the throttle because like u said, it sacrifices the line. if I need more mid corner stability, I change my setup, not my throttle input.

It would be interesting to see what we are each really doing with the throttle in a corner once we go to positive throttle. You really cannot maintain the speed you have without turning the throttle, at least to the point where resistance and drive reach equilibrium. Realistically, what many riders who hold steady throttle do is roll it on a little too much and then wait for the bike to accelerate. This applies a little more torque at the rear wheel than is ideal in the first moments after rolling on. A slower, finer roll-on provides a little rearward weight bias, minimal acceleration and reduces that initial torque at the wheel.

When I say the line widens, it's literally true, but it's also a tiny, tiny amount and is part of your planning. The line is accurate and the radius should be expanding a little bit towards the end of the corner.

Regarding stability, I have yet to see a bike that is not more stable on the gas than off. Can you set the bike up to be stable off the gas? Sure. Will it become even more stable under light acceleration? Yep.