Do you believe in miracles?

[musiclucho]

Well I do...and here is the story.
Sometime ago in April, I picked up 2 Kawas ninja 250 (I called them the sisters and gave them names) to do a quarantine project. Until then I've done some basic maintenance in my bikes but nothing "too deep" or even a resurrection :laughing

First thing I did was to see which one was "running". Well, both engines ran on the same clean set of carburetors so I decided to keep one (Citiela) and sell the other after I made it run (Citi Maria). Citi Maria sold with no fairings but I put the only set of handlebars I had so I did not have handle bars for Citiela.

I started to dissasemble Citiela and rebuild parts. Rear suspension, rear brakes, front suspension, brakes, electical issues, carbs...and the list went on. I've never clean sooo much :laughing

BTW. I love the dollar store degreaser. That is a savior one.

Recently I've got a left handlebar and I am waiting for the right side (from a member of BARF!) so I can't ride it just yet. This week, I finally rebuild the carbs and give it a try. It started on the first try. arty Kept it for while on choke and turn it off. No smoke...nothing unusual really.

My anxiety started to grow more and more. It has brakes and suspension. So I wanted to put the handlebars and ride it!!! But the right side has not come just yet. :teeth

Sooo today, after I came from work...I thought: I wanna do something more. I know I will eventually have to check the valve clearance cuz I did the other and it was really needing it....so I took my time this time. Radiator off, valve cover off...started to "drain" some pools of oil with a syringe and there is the miracle: There was a rocker arm swimming in the oil!!! :wtf

I was first a bit frustrated but then it happens: I saw the glass half full. I am glad I did not have the chance to run the bike and I am totally glad that it did not cause a big damage when It ran for a few minutes on idle. I am almost sure the valve is ok because the spring is there and it is supposed to keep it close, right?

Now...I have a big challenge and I am a bit anxious but at the end of the day I am confident that with patience and logic (and the manual and a lot of youtube videos and your advice :laughing) I will be able to put the rocker arm back.

Advice is very welcome....I am already feeling some relief by telling you guys the story in my broken english (apologize in advance).

Thanks for reading!

 

[Maddevill]

Wait a minute. Was this an EXTRA rocker arm or one of the ones that was supposed to be in there ?
Because if it was one of the needed ones I didn't see how it's possible it ran good....at all. It would run on one cylinder. The reason I ask is I once found a "spare" rocker pad inside a new KTM

Mad

 

[RickM]

Have seen this multiple times on 88 to 07 ninja 250.
Never had one cause damage. One motor even had a valve collet come off and fortunately the remaining valve collet held the valve in place.

The engine actually ran better at low rpms with the rocker not in places. Higher rpms you’d feel much lower power

 

[musiclucho]

Wait a minute. Was this an EXTRA rocker arm or one of the ones that was supposed to be in there ?
Because if it was one of the needed ones I didn't see how it's possible it ran good....at all. It would run on one cylinder. The reason I ask is I once found a "spare" rocker pad inside a new KTM

Mad

No, it was not a spare. It was one of the left side intake rocker arms. When I bought it, she was not running and it was part dissasembled. This week, it "ran" again on idle and about 5-6k rpms. I have read that technically, they will run on less valves (she has 8 so 4 per cylinder). It is not a surprise since I found that her sister was running with 2 or 3 exhaust valves open always (there was no clearance or less than 0.3mm).

 

[musiclucho]

Have seen this multiple times on 88 to 07 ninja 250.
Never had one cause damage. One motor even had a valve collet come off and fortunately the remaining valve collet held the valve in place.

The engine actually ran better at low rpms with the rocker not in places. Higher rpms you’d feel much lower power

Well...maybe it was running on 7 valves only. But I am still glad that it did not made it´s way toward the cam chain. I read in the ninja forum of cases when the rocker arms had broke and went everywhere down the cam chain gallery. DISASTER!

 

[ST Guy]

How the heck does a rocker arm just come off?

 

[musiclucho]

How the heck does a rocker arm just come off?

I dunno but it came out in one piece. On further inspection, I saw a little bite in the aluminum case. #theescaperoute

 

[musiclucho]

Update to this story...
So today I broke my back trying to get this fixed. This is my very first time removing the camshaft and messing with the timing....a bit challenging but not rocket science.

Well, I managed to remove the intake cam shaft and put the rocker arm back. Torque everything and proceeded with valve clearance. By then, my confidence was so high that I forgot to cover the cam chain tunnel and spark plugs holes :wow... so here we go...
Two errors in a row (You can guess my second mistake) made me lose my 0.13mm filler gauge inside the cam chain tunnel. Boy, I lost my mind looking for that sucker! To made my story short, I finally got it after a lot or cursing and further disassembling including oil drain...
All right, back in track. With everything in place (once again)...went to adjust the clearance for the former swimmer (the rocket arm) and no matter what, there isn’t clearance. Lost my mind again...
So here I was again, taking stuff apart (this time without even marking things up). I checked again the rocker arm and this time against a working one. They look identical and it seems to work well. Thinking and thinking...aha! I found the culprit: the valve spring is stuck. All that I can see is one of the two keepers in place. The other seemed to be stuck. I tried hitting it with a socket and a hammer but nothing happened. By this time my mind and body were really tired so I decided to put things back and leave that valve closed (without the rocker arm of course).

Put the rest back...and gave it a try. It runs...idles just above 1k rpm. I will leave it like that for a while, teach my wife how to ride and keep it as a future project for a “head removal class” (I am talking about my head ��).

Any advice about how to get the valve unfreeze?

Once again... thanks for reading my story and apologize for my broken english .

 

[Busy Little Shop]

Miracles do happen but one has to work just as hard for them as non miracles...

 

[Sportbiker]

Fascinating turn of events.. thanks for sharing. :thumbup

 

[musiclucho]

How to fix a closed intake valve.

After I put everything back together, the bike ran with 7 valves...idle and mid revs. The part still hasn't come yet....so I wanted so bad to try it and made an OEM redneck handle from a redwood branch fallen on my yard. Check the pic...of course I knew this was just to move the bike around but I still tried going down and up hill as far as our street goes (just one large block in lenght but very steep)...it went well. A bit of hanging but nothing too bad.

Today Friday the parts came in. Big THANKS to DANNO who sent me the parts. Inmediately, I switch the parts and went for a more serious test. As expected, the bike bogs past 50 or 60mph but runs ok. I want this bike to teach my wife so that will be ok but I know that in the future I want to fix the valve problem.

Now, let me tell you the problem. I don't think the valve itself is stuck but the spring because one of the keepers is jammed there. I would not want to take out the engine further down but if is a must, I will do it.

I need some advice if some of you had experienced this issue. What would be the best approach to put back in service that valve?

 

[RickM]

I removed the head and used a valve spring compressor to install the keepers properly. Will need a new head gasket also to reinstall. I was able to get away without changing the base gasket. If they base moves while taking the head out , I’d replace the base gasket too.

 

[Maddevill]

A tree branch for a handlebar, riding around with a stuck valve....you're my kind of guy.

Mad

 

[Rob]

After I put everything back together, the bike ran with 7 valves...idle and mid revs. The part still hasn't come yet....so I wanted so bad to try it and made an OEM redneck handle from a redwood branch fallen on my yard. Check the pic...of course I knew this was just to move the bike around but I still tried going down and up hill as far as our street goes (just one large block in lenght but very steep)...it went well. A bit of hanging but nothing too bad.

Today Friday the parts came in. Big THANKS to DANNO who sent me the parts. Inmediately, I switch the parts and went for a more serious test. As expected, the bike bogs past 50 or 60mph but runs ok. I want this bike to teach my wife so that will be ok but I know that in the future I want to fix the valve problem.

Now, let me tell you the problem. I don't think the valve itself is stuck but the spring because one of the keepers is jammed there. I would not want to take out the engine further down but if is a must, I will do it.

I need some advice if some of you had experienced this issue. What would be the best approach to put back in service that valve?

Would it be too much to assume that the WD-40 can is your makeshift gas tank? Wassat?

 

[DannoXYZ]

@musiclucho
Wow, I didn’t realise this is what you meant by “stuck valve”! Good thing hitting it with hammer didn’t dislodge valve-keepers, then you’d have to pull head. Smacking with hammer is only used to remove keepers. Re-install requires more precision tools. I just finished replacing all valve stem seals on my dad’s Lexus without removing head and am gonna do it on my EX250 next. I’ll outline how to fix your stuck valve below.

First, you’ve got rocker that’s fallen off valve. This is caused by previous gorilla mechanics not using torque wrench to tighten adjuster locknut. They end up overtightening it!

Underneath, there’s two tabs/ledges that keep it centred over valve-stem.

What overtightening locknut does is spins rocker sideways hard enough to break off one of these tabs.

Then when cams pushes on rocker, eventually due to broken tab, rocker works its way loose. This is just start of Armageddon as rocker pushes onto valve-retainer and pushes on that instead of valve-stem. This is why you have partially dislodged keeper. In some lucky cases it manages to dislodge keepers, and valve drops and is smashed by piston and you have only one broken valve and piston.

In other instances, rocker eventually works its way out completely. Inevitably, it falls into cam-chain and jam it. Breaking tensioner mount off block, which jams tensioner into chain and shears teeth off cam sprocket. Which puts cam out-of-phase with crank causing pistons to hit valves. Final closing act bends all valves, punches holes in both pistons and snaps remaining rockers in half!!! So yes! I believe in miracles!!!

 

[DannoXYZ]

To fix:

1. I’ve got spare rocker I’ll send you. Can compare to one you have and see that tab is broken off on yours.

2. Get about 10-15ft of soft nylon rope.

3. Rotate piston past BDC on intake stroke, then halfway up compression stroke. You can confirm compression stroke by seeing both exhaust and intake cam-lobes aimed upwards away from valves.

4. Feed in through spark-plug hole as much soft nylon rope as you can, 10-15ft of rope

5. Rotate engine towards TDC of compression stroke to cram rope up against valve heads. This holds valve in place when you push down on valve-retainer to re-install keepers. Valve won’t drop into cylinder and make re-installing keepers impossible.

Toyota and Volvo have these nifty tools to push on valve buckets to allow easy removal of shims for clearance adjustments. Don’t have to remove cams to adjust shims!

I’ll make forked version of this this tool to press on valve-retainers of EX250. Then send it to you after I finish replacing my valve-stem seals without removing having to remove engine or head.

6. Use special-tool to press down on valve-retainer enough to free keepers

7. Re-install keepers around grooves in valve-stem end

8. Slowly release valve-retainer by gently withdrawing special-tool, remove rope

9. Install new unbroken rocker arm

10. Adjust valve-clearance, might as well check all others


That’s it!!! Stuck valve and broken rocker fixed!!

 

[musiclucho]

Would it be too much to assume that the WD-40 can is your makeshift gas tank? Wassat?

Is actually my DIY auxiliary gas tank. I thought it was gonna be controversial as it seems I am putting WD-40 in the engine, but I prepared and cleaned the can previously. But trust me on this one, the bike was getting the cleanest gas possible from that WD-40 can.

 

[musiclucho]

To fix:

1. I’ve got spare rocker I’ll send you. Can compare to one you have and see that tab is broken off on yours.

2. Get about 10-15ft of soft nylon rope.

3. Rotate piston past BDC on intake stroke, then halfway up compression stroke. You can confirm compression stroke by seeing both exhaust and intake cam-lobes aimed upwards away from valves.

4. Feed in through spark-plug hole as much soft nylon rope as you can, 10-15ft of rope

5. Rotate engine towards TDC of compression stroke to cram rope up against valve heads. This holds valve in place when you push down on valve-retainer to re-install keepers. Valve won’t drop into cylinder and make re-installing keepers impossible.

Toyota and Volvo have these nifty tools to push on valve buckets to allow easy removal of shims for clearance adjustments. Don’t have to remove cams to adjust shims!

I’ll make forked version of this this tool to press on valve-retainers of EX250. Then send it to you after I finish replacing my valve-stem seals without removing having to remove engine or head.

6. Use special-tool to press down on valve-retainer enough to free keepers

7. Re-install keepers around grooves in valve-stem end

8. Slowly release valve-retainer by gently withdrawing special-tool, remove rope

9. Install new unbroken rocker arm

10. Adjust valve-clearance, might as well check all others


That’s it!!! Stuck valve and broken rocker fixed!!

You are the man Danno!!! Thanks for the advice and I will stay in contact with you.

 

[Tom G]

On my old Audi the shop installed a compressed air hose into the spark plug thread. That way the air pressure would keep the valves closed when they replaced the seals.