Are E-bikes more dangerous than motos??

davidji

bike curious
The video is about e-bicycles and how explores the normal bicycle dangers (not keeping up with traffic, not being seen, not wearing protective gear) along with untrained, not-moto-licensed e-bicycle riders going faster than they're used to, getting themselves hurt & running over pedestrians. The point it makes is people considering commuting on an e-bicycle should consider commuting on a motorcycle.
 

rcb78

Well-known member
I deal directly with something like this as part of my job. I wouldn't say that ebikes are any more or less dangerous, but I certainly agree that the riders often don't fully appreciate the gravity of being handed pedaling power they didn't earn the old fashioned way. It used to be that by the time you had the legs to get yourself into a tough spot, you also had the skill to get out of it safely, not so anymore. ebikes are like a giant crash 5 category for the new rider.
 

rcb78

Well-known member
Yes,,,, but I believe he said kph in the video which corresponds to a class 3 ebike limited to 28mph in the US. I know 50kph is higher than 28mph, but I think he was rounding up.
I think that technically speaking, if it is faster than a class 3 or exceeds the power limitation (1hp or 750w), then it moves into the moped classification or other similar motorized cycle class.
 

davidji

bike curious
I deal directly with something like this as part of my job. I wouldn't say that ebikes are any more or less dangerous,

They're more dangerous to pedestrians on bike paths since we don't see motorcycles there when we're walking. And I think that many e-bikes on the paths aren't path legal. Either because they didn't actually meet the requirements in the 1st place or they've been modified to go faster.

Which do you think is more dangerous to pedestrians in crosswalks?

The video was comparing them for commuting, not recreational use. One of the points that comes out of it is if the e-bicycle riders had a moto license they'd be less of a hazard to themselves and others. He doesn't suggest a license should be required though.
 
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Gravisman

Aspiring Racer
I feel (subjectively) much more in danger when I ride a bicycle than a motorcycle. But talking about X being safer in Y scenario is meaningless without statistics. The only way to measure safety is by doing science. Either you directly measure something (like a crash test) or you observe statistics from the real world and see what conclusions they point to. The reasons people talk about one thing being safer than another are just potential explanations for statistics that might be observed, but meaningless until such observations are made.
 

Wrider

Wrider
I support e-bikes, particularly for utilitarian use (as a substitute for a car). But I do worry that many e-bike riders are exceeding their skillsets, both in traffic, and off-road. That button is enabling them to ride beyond their abilities. They don't understand the limits of traction (off-road), or how to be seen and react in traffic (on-road). And I've spent a lot of time in both worlds (CMSP instructor, bicycle coach, bicycle racer, worked in both the bicycle and the motorcycle industries).
 

rcb78

Well-known member
Which do you think is more dangerous to pedestrians in crosswalks?

I stand by what I said, it's the rider not the bike. I and many other cyclists are perfectly capable of riding faster that most of the ebikes I encounter I'm the wild. Your assumption of modded bikes and speeds in excess of class limits are pure speculation unless you have a way of making that up and pedestrians frequently over estimate the speed of passing cyclists, I personally experience this all the time.
Why do you think the bikes on the path aren't legal? Don't get me wrong, I believe ebikes need more regulation, but most of what you're saying applies more to bikes in general when ridden by dicks than ebikes specifically. The same could be said about Moto riders.
 

cg_ops

1-Armed Bandit
Are E-bikes more dangerous than motos??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM8Xli2KTzI
Interesting Fortnine video that argues E-bikers don't wear enough protective gear, aren't as visible, and the riders don't need to go through a safety class and get a license so their skill level is not the same.

I dislike the wording on these kinds of opinion pieces, especially the part in bold. I've seen people vehemently argue against wearing race-level gear on the street because "it's more dangerous than wearing a moderate amount of gear because it instills a sense of over confidence and tempts riskier riding". But they're not arguing against the top tier gear, they're arguing against how people ride when they're not as scared of getting hurt.

Similarly, ebikes aren't more dangerous. It's that the path to owning them doesn't have the same barriers and guidance that motos do. The major points of perceived danger for ebikes (in the video) are:

  • Poor Gear - get some casual moto gear, I have a full outfit that doesn't look like it's moto related (outside of gloves and helmet)
  • Poor Visibility - same problem as scooters. and small bikes. Get/use the headlight, tail light, and avoid dark clothes
  • Poor Sophistication - not really any more poor than motos of similar capabilities. A bike that tops out at 30-50mph isn't going to have much fewer bells/whistles than a moto that tops out at the same speed

It wasn't until the very end that they mention things that would mitigate the risks: mandatory licensing, proper training, wearing gear, etc... then they immediately dismiss the idea as "another not-fun law, booo". So, really, no... eBikes aren't more dangerous, people are just lazy and don't respect the nature of a silent, uber-light motorcycle that happens to come in the form of a bicycle.

All that said, I want an ebike to hoon around town, in the pits at the track, and for getting around on camping trips. I'll probably wear the same gear I would on a Grom, save for a goofier helmet. :ride
 

berth

Well-known member
Similarly, ebikes aren't more dangerous.

People think that they're "just bicycles", and they're not.

They treat them like they're bicycles when they go faster, easier and are also far heavier.

Since it's easier to go faster, on a heavier bike, the dynamics are different.

I have to assume that the brakes are up to the task, I honestly don't know. But I'm not sure that the tires are.

People already underestimate bicycles. We see it all the time. What makes folks think they won't underestimate an ebike even more.

Heck, they don't give those little rental e-scooters a second thought (are those still a thing, or did that fad burn out?), and those can be down right scary.

All that said, I want an ebike to hoon around town, in the pits at the track, and for getting around on camping trips. I'll probably wear the same gear I would on a Grom, save for a goofier helmet.

The helmet thing is always amusing.

If you look at how a Snell helmet is tested for compliance, bicyclists are in just as much danger as a motorcyclist. It's not the forward momentum that the helmet is protecting against, it's the head impact with the pavement after falling six feet to the ground.

Yet, bicycle helmets are strips of foam thin foam taped together. And, of course, adults rarely wear them.
 

greenmonster

Well-known member
Maybe the consideration is to look at motorized modes of transportation differently than non-motorized, and to then think of safety classes/training/licensing for the motorized group that would increase safety and responsibility.
I can’t think of any motorized major transportation modes (cars, boats, airplanes, buses, semis, motorcycles) that don’t require training and a license.
Electric scooters are an exception and now we have e bikes so maybe as useage (and injuries) grow there may be some movement in that direction.
 

davidji

bike curious
It's not the forward momentum that the helmet is protecting against, it's the head impact with the pavement after falling six feet to the ground.
And they're grossly inadequate for even that. Are they the best we could get people to wear? Maybe, for now. But they're shite for protection.

With e-bikes using less of our energy to ride, I could see wearing a more robust helmet on one than I wear on bicycle or unicycle. And with higher sustained speeds people do on e-bikes, it might make sense to offer e-bike helmets meeting a standard based on some crash protection, not just falling onto your head. Though at the least they should absorb more energy when you do that.
 

novaks47

Well-known member
As to people exceeding their skill sets on these things, well, most people aren't fit to even drive, yet here they are doing all kinds of stupid stuff on the roads. Licensing won't do anything, just look at how easy it is to get a moto license here. Basically, if you can balance, you pass, and that means you can then ride whatever moto you want, from a TW200 to a modified H2. Heck, I see people on traditional bicycles that have no business being on public roads on a weekly basis(due to reckless behavior, I'm not saying they shouldn't be there). With protection, well, regular cyclists are woefully lacking as well. I used to bomb down dirt trails at 40+ mph on mountain bikes, and I wore the same as everyone else : A bicycle helmet, gloves, and regular clothes. If nobody cares about that, or roadies going down mountain roads at similar speeds, why the sudden concern for electric riders?

As for speed of electric bicycles, if they exceed the 750W, they are considered mopeds in this state, and can be registered as such, see the Suron bikes for example. Also, no special endorsement is needed to operate a moped, just a regular class C is good enough per the state. Also, traditional bicycles can be operated at those speeds and higher, all with pedal power, yet no similar concerns? Odd.

If we are to regulate these things(no thanks), then IMO, the whole system needs to be overhauled, or you'll end up in the same situations with the same concerns, only with a layer of bureaucracy added in. I think all this noise generated over electric bicycles is simply due to them being somewhat new, and growing in popularity, as well as avid cyclists getting butt hurt over people not having to pedal, thus not crossing some sort of perceived mandatory barrier of entry.
 

Matty D

Well-known member
The barrier to entry is lower for e-bikes, but either way the rider is what makes one mode or the other more or less dangerous.

I am far more skilled on a bike than a motorcycle. I also do really stupid stuff on a bike, but I tend to be more conservative on a motorcycle. Is sending a 10-foot drop or a sketchy steep chute on a bike more dangerous than somewhat spirited (but still conservative) moto riding in the twisties? Tough call.

Also, does a shark swim better than a cheetah runs?
 

rcb78

Well-known member
The regulation I'd like to see is more about the manufacturing side than the personal responsibility side, I've got no solution for that except to yell at people to grow the f up.
It was mentioned in a post about brakes being up to the task, well I've got a bike in my shop right now from some unknown amazon source that has v-brakes that aren't up to the task of a non ebike, and yet here it is. Other motorized vehicles usually have some level of DOT compliance so why not here too. I once had a bike in the shop with fanny pack sized lithium batter hanging off the handlebars by velcro straps, and it came that way from the seller. One endo away from a firework show.
 
I love eBike tech, but in SF I generally hate the idiots who an enabled to ride them. Nothing like getting buzzed while walking on a mixed use path at 20+ mph by someone on one of those Lyft bikes wobbling along in their own little world. There are some eScooters out there that rip as well, definitely seen a few of those that have to be doing 30pmh or more ripping down market.

In fact as a life long cyclist, I find many cyclists to be cringeworthy at best, assholes at worst. I don't think licensing would work, but I'd love to see the advocacy groups put a lot more effort into education. Also, get off my lawn :afm199
 
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