AFM Saturday Races with no practice?

[2wls4ever]

Hey All,

During the last Thunderhill round, it was announced we were not allowed to have a practice session prior to racing a class Saturday afternoon. We were informed we must pay for the all day Saturday practice.

Is it just me or is this not only crazy but dangerous?

I race FIII on Saturday along with three classes on Sunday. I don't need more than a single practice on Saturday (unless there was qualifying for grid positions). If I was going to do some bike setup, I would actually do it on a Friday practice if it existed.

This rule has me thinking about not racing on Saturdays next year and just showing up on Sunday to race to reduce my costs.

If the AFM's logic to produce more revenue with more paid practice, it will turn into a negative number for them because now, I won't show up at all and they won't receive my Saturday race entry.

What do you guys think?

 

[Moose]

I believe a 1/2 day practice can be done, contact Kinsy the chief registrar to get details on this.

http://www.afmracing.org/contact-us

 

[frozenuts]

Why do you consider it dangerous?

 

[2wls4ever]

Why do you consider it dangerous?

I consider it dangerous to allow a rider to sign up and race without a single practice session.

 

[2wls4ever]

I believe a 1/2 day practice can be done, contact Kinsy the chief registrar to get details on this.

http://www.afmracing.org/contact-us

Thanks. I believe it's $100 for two ten minute practice sessions.

Below is how the CVMA at Chuckwalla runs it. It makes sense, is super fun, entries are up and growing, is much cheaper and the amount I save makes up for the fuel cost of driving down. If the AFM business plan continues as is, rider participation will decrease.

"So if you come out just for a race on Saturday, you get three practice sessions in the morning and a race for $100. If you enter a race on Saturday and a race on Sunday, you get three practice sessions on Saturday, two sessions on Sunday, a race on Saturday and a race on Sunday – all for $150."

 

[thedub]

I consider it dangerous to allow a rider to sign up and race without a single practice session.

That wasn't an answer to the question. Why would that be dangerous?

 

[frozenuts]

That wasn't an answer to the question. Why would that be dangerous?

Beat me to it.

If the danger is that the racer is unsure if their bike is ready to go then practicing on the bike is equally as dangerous and the racer should rethink their maintenance habits.

If the racer needs a practice session to remember the track, then one session will not help. The racer should probably splurge on the practice sessions and maybe even the Friday track day, depending on the level remembrance needed.

Also, Chuckwalla does not need to pay Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, or Sears Point to rent the track. If the AFM owned their own track then I am sure the pricing would be much cheaper as well.

 

[2wls4ever]

That wasn't an answer to the question. Why would that be dangerous?

Because it’s not allowing an adjustment for the conditions on the day. Hot greasy track, cold track, dirty track, new track. Gearing changes, suspension changes. Removing any nervousness.

This is an athletic sport and in any other situation, warmup is normal. It can also prevent a muscle injury.

How could you view it as not dangerous.?

 

[frozenuts]

Because it’s not allowing an adjustment for the conditions on the day. Hot greasy track, cold track, dirty track, new track. Gearing changes, suspension changes. Removing any nervousness.

This is an athletic sport and in any other situation, warmup is normal. It can also prevent a muscle injury.

How could you view it as not dangerous.?

While a suspension adjustment can be sorted in one practice session many racers will not be able to get a gearing change figured out in that amount of time.

Stretching is way more effective body warm up than doing a single practice session.

Your warm up lap (and the warm up lap of any other race) is there for a nerve quencher, and it allows you to see if there is any oil dry/dirt/etc out there.

If you have not figured out that a hot day makes the track hot and a cold day makes the track cold you need much more help than a single practice.

 

[jbawden]

In the last 17 years of racing, I've easily spent enough money to pay cash for a nice house in Dayton Ohio, a multi-acre compound even. I know it's winter but you're really going to complain about the nominal fee for Saturday practice? As previously stated the economic realities of CVMA vs. AFM are a bit different.

 

[2wls4ever]

While a suspension adjustment can be sorted in one practice session many racers will not be able to get a gearing change figured out in that amount of time.

Stretching is way more effective body warm up than doing a single practice session.

Your warm up lap (and the warm up lap of any other race) is there for a nerve quencher, and it allows you to see if there is any oil dry/dirt/etc out there.

If you have not figured out that a hot day makes the track hot and a cold day makes the track cold you need much more help than a single practice.

Perhaps find me in the next practice and I will show how much help I need at the track.

If you don’t think we need practice before a race, please announce yourself so I no where to stay away from on the track.

 

[2wls4ever]

In the last 17 years of racing, I've easily spent enough money to pay cash for a nice house in Dayton Ohio, a multi-acre compound even. I know it's winter but you're really going to complain about the nominal fee for Saturday practice? As previously stated the economic realities of CVMA vs. AFM are a bit different.

Yes, I am. It’s not worth it

 

[frozenuts]

Perhaps find me in the next practice and I will show how much help I need at the track.

If you don’t think we need practice before a race, please announce yourself so I no where to stay away from on the track.

Everyone needs help at the track.

Everyone.

Me, you, Rossi... Everyone.

The reason that the AFM has Saturday practice is because we as a club realize this.

Since we do not own Buttonwillow, Thunderhill, and Sears Point, we need to charge for the practice in order to be able to keep doing this year after year.

You want to practice yet do not want to pay for it. Sadly, that is not how the club's insurance policy works so if you need more than your outlap (and the outlap of any other race) you will need to put up the cash to do so.

All it takes is one idiot to go out and wad their shit exiting the carousel when they are not supposed to be on track for the club's insurance to get dinged.

Nobody wants to be that guy.

 

[jbawden]

I know consumer behavior is a funny thing but please don't tell me you would feel better if AFM said Saturday practice was free but then your first race was now $150 more?? On the other hand, people love 'free' stuff and more often than not I'm too charitable with my benefit of the doubt.

As is always preached here, if you have an idea, bring it to the board ($25 last chance practice fee?). Of course we all like the idea of the last practice being open to those that did not pay for practice, but it also seems perfectly reasonable for AFM to close that loophole and request that you pay for the opportunity. One way or another bills have be paid and I think the current model is the most equitable.

Putting aside the debate of whether or not AFM should have Saturday practice altogether...the way AFM does it now, if you don't want practice you don't have to pay for it. Because AFM has no incentive to charge more than is necessary to keep the club solvent, the less AFM charges for practice the more they have to charge for races. So in the lower cost/free practice model, the group that does not participate in Saturday practice is subsidizing those that do.

 

[eeeeek]

Here's how I see it. If you sign up for a Sunday race, you get a practice session. Why is the same not true for a Saturday race?

 

[frozenuts]

Here's how I see it. If you sign up for a Sunday race, you get a practice session. Why is the same not true for a Saturday race?

Sunday there is only one practice session and there is no way for the racers to cheat the system by going out for more than one session.

If we could trust that the riders would only go out for one session then I would be all for it, but we can't. We have people smuggling friends/family/other racers in to avoid the gate fees, so how are we supposed to pretend that everyone will be honest about practice?

Regulate it you are saying? The tech stickers are tough to see. Even with the slower speeds that we have asked riders to keep as they roll past the tower we have had people who have not paid for practice sneak by...and crash. Our insurance does not cover that.

Do we make people come to a complete stop before they go out to verify that they have paid?

We could say that they only they only get the first session, but they would bitch about the track being cold.

The last session?

They would bitch about it being too short.

The board is always open to suggestions, but they typically come as a thread on BARF or a facebook post, not an email or an appearance at the meeting.

 

[stangmx13]

Frozenuts, u ever do any work in customer service? The main ideas of your last post were solid, and it would have been nice if u posted that a lot sooner in this thread. That info could have steering this thread in a much more positive direction IMO. But shit, that whole post came across wrong.

 

[Corey]

Has AFM looked into offering a Friday Test Day of a race weekend? 3 groups of 20 minute sessions per hour. That's 7, 20 minute sessions per group. Loads of track time. This would allow all day Saturday and Sunday for racing with maybe 2 practice sessions in the mornings.

Exploit those that have gone out for practice without paying... :mad

 

[ZXR400SP]

Because it’s not allowing an adjustment for the conditions on the day. Hot greasy track, cold track, dirty track, new track. Gearing changes, suspension changes. Removing any nervousness.

This is an athletic sport and in any other situation, warmup is normal. It can also prevent a muscle injury.

How could you view it as not dangerous.?

I guess because I've done it multiple times. :ride

 

[frozenuts]

Frozenuts, u ever do any work in customer service? The main ideas of your last post were solid, and it would have been nice if u posted that a lot sooner in this thread. That info could have steering this thread in a much more positive direction IMO. But shit, that whole post came across wrong.

I have actually won awards for customer service. :laughing

Has AFM looked into offering a Friday Test Day of a race weekend? 3 groups of 20 minute sessions per hour. That's 7, 20 minute sessions per group. Loads of track time. This would allow all day Saturday and Sunday for racing with maybe 2 practice sessions in the mornings.

Exploit those that have gone out for practice without paying... :mad

I am not sure if the club ever has. I am not sure what the cost of a third day would look like for the club or what the track day providers would say about us taking what is usually a pretty packed day from their wallet.

In a three group format, one of those would have to be for Practice group 5 people only. I say this because of the massive amount of complaints that Barb gets whenever she tries to combine groups 4 and 5. Even a slow guy like me bitches with combined sessions as there are just too many people out on the course to get more than one clean lap in. I am usually in the way. :laughing

Given that we have gone to qualifying to set the grid for FP, I don't see the fast guys buying into only two sessions on Saturday.

Fridays can be hard for people to get off, and those coming from Washington and Oregon might even need to take an extra day to get down here refreshed and ready to ride. I know at least one of the registration girls often can only take a half day on Friday as well.

I'm not saying that it is a bad idea, just that there is probably more to it than just adding a day. Something to consider.