Any BARF Audiophiles?

johnkol

johnkol

Well-known member
GAJ said:
I think I'll stick with my 30+ year old NAD7250PE in my 2.2 secondary setup for music.
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Small world; the NAD 7250 PE was my first "hi-end" component.

At some point I tried an experiment: I replaced the metal bars connecting the pre-outputs to the power inputs with a very short section of "audiophile" cable; my aim was to show that there would be no audible difference. Failed miserably: I was astounded by the fact that I could actually hear a difference. A subtle one, but once I honed in on it, it was 100% repeatable. That was the beginning of my audiophile rabbit hole.

After a couple of years I got a good power amp and used the NAD as a pre; that difference was *not* subtle.
 
GAJ

GAJ

Well-known member
johnkol said:
Small world; the NAD 7250 PE was my first "hi-end" component.

At some point I tried an experiment: I replaced the metal bars connecting the pre-outputs to the power inputs with a very short section of "audiophile" cable; my aim was to show that there would be no audible difference. Failed miserably: I was astounded by the fact that I could actually hear a difference. A subtle one, but once I honed in on it, it was 100% repeatable. That was the beginning of my audiophile rabbit hole.

After a couple of years I got a good power amp and used the NAD as a pre; that difference was *not* subtle.
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Not using the metal bars but surprised that a cable would be "better" than a thick metal bar.

My pre outs today go to a MiniDSP which acts as the subwoofer crossover and EQ for my dual subs, then to a NAD amp bridged in mono that drives my center channel in "quasi" 3.2 and then back to the amp using some old "audiophile" cables I had laying around.

First bought it in 1986 as part of my first 5.1 system where the NAD amp drove the rears, but also had a Shure Surround Processor and outboard amp for my ULD15 sub so it was a tangle of cable back then to achieve 5.1 using a self powered center speaker.

Amazingly it has never been serviced and still sounds great while a far more expensive NAD AVR I bought 20 years or so ago failed within 10 years.

Just started using an old Denon SACD player from 2005 that I resurrected to play my CDs after a decade of streaming.

The Denon has 192kHz/24-bit Burr-Brown DSD-1791 audio DACs.

Guess what, CDs sound a LOT better than "lossless" streaming using the DACs in my sound card! :laughing
 
johnkol

johnkol

Well-known member
GAJ said:
Not using the metal bars but surprised that a cable would be "better" than a thick metal bar.
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I was not working as an engineer back then (wasn't even thinking like one), so I never measured them to see how much difference there was between the bars and the cables.

By the time I started working as an engineer, with access to a state-of-the-art lab, I no longer had the NAD, but I did have quite a few interconnect cables. All of them measured differently, some of them by a huge amount, but making the correlation with audible differences was an almost impossible task.

GAJ said:
Amazingly it has never been serviced and still sounds great while a far more expensive NAD AVR I bought 20 years or so ago failed within 10 years.
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Capacitors degrade over time, but the degradation is so slow that you are unlikely to notice it. Have you tried a different amp to see if there is an obvious difference?
 
GAJ

GAJ

Well-known member
johnkol said:
Capacitors degrade over time, but the degradation is so slow that you are unlikely to notice it. Have you tried a different amp to see if there is an obvious difference?
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The only outboard amp I have is a NAD of the same vintage.

I did watch the DVD of "The Wall" which I've watched numerous times on my main system in my secondary room with the NADs and didn't notice anything missing in terms of fidelity, impact or noise floor. :dunno
 
omegajeff

omegajeff

Well-known member
Do any of you guys want these? Make me an offer. Seriously...make an offer and then come pick them up.

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GAJ

GAJ

Well-known member
omegajeff said:
Do any of you guys want these? Make me an offer. Seriously...make an offer and then come pick them up.

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They might sound a lot better with far more distance from the walls, especially if played full range.

What do you like about them, (Klipsch RP280F?), and why are you selling?
 
omegajeff

omegajeff

Well-known member
They're Klipsch RF-7 II.

Right now they're set back about 1' from the back and side walls. If I'm doing some critical listening, I'll get them about 2' from the front/side walls and yes, the bass is quite a bit better that way. Right now they're powered with a Parasound P5 pre and an Emotiva XPA-2 amp. I've also powered them with a Schiit Freya pre, Schiit Bifrost multibit DAC and a pair of Schiit Vidars. Either way, they rock. They're just big, juicy horn loaded speakers.

And why do I want to sell them? I just want a change, really. I've been wanting a pair of Sonus Faber Venere S towers. I think they're a gorgeous set of speakers and I'd like looking at them just as much as listening to them. Zu Audio Soul Supremes look the business too. However, the GoldenEar Triton Reference are looking better and better (not as "statement piece" looking as the Sonus Fabers, though). I'm a semi-bass head, so I want speakers that are gonna dig deep. I've got a Hsu STF-2 that I supplement my system with depending on the genre of music I'm listening to, and the mood I'm in.

So yea, just looking for a change. I'm honestly looking for no less than $1,000. Or, if you've got some intriguing speakers that you want to trade, +/- some cash, let me know.
 
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GAJ

GAJ

Well-known member
omegajeff said:
They're Klipsch RF-7 II.

Right now they're set back about 1' from the back and side walls. If I'm doing some critical listening, I'll get them about 2' from the front/side walls and yes, the bass is quite a bit better that way. Right now they're powered with a Parasound P5 pre and an Emotiva XPA-2 amp. I've also powered them with a Schiit Freya pre, Schiit Bifrost multibit DAC and a pair of Schiit Vidars. Either way, they rock. They're just big, juicy horn loaded speakers.

And why do I want to sell them? I just want a change, really. I've been wanting a pair of Sonus Faber Venere S towers. I think they're a gorgeous set of speakers and I'd like looking at them just as much as listening to them. Zu Audio Soul Supremes look the business too. However, the GoldenEar Triton Reference are looking better and better (not as "statement piece" looking as the Sonus Fabers, though). I'm a semi-bass head, so I want speakers that are gonna dig deep. I've got a Hsu STF-2 that I supplement my system with depending on the genre of music I'm listening to, and the mood I'm in.

So yea, just looking for a change. I'm honestly looking for no less than $1,000. Or, if you've got some intriguing speakers that you want to trade, +/- some cash, let me know.
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The measurements for some of those brands can be found here, (may not be the models you are interested in).

A speaker brand that may have the bass you enjoy are Tekton but a little pricey and, um, odd looking but they get rave reviews.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/zucable_druid/
 
omegajeff

omegajeff

Well-known member
GAJ said:
The measurements for some of those brands can be found here, (may not be the models you are interested in).

A speaker brand that may have the bass you enjoy are Tekton but a little pricey and, um, odd looking but they get rave reviews.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/zucable_druid/
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Sweet site! How have I not run across this before?!?! I found measurements for some other speakers I've been interested in, but most specifically the GoldenEar Triton Reference. But, like has been debated before, numbers are one thing. Room dynamics, electronics, cables (gasp!!) all have an influence on the sound. I really need to find a good dealer in the Bay Area that has some of the brands I'm interested in and go do some listening. Or buy them, enjoy them for a few years and sell them at a deep deep deep discount. LOL!
 
GAJ

GAJ

Well-known member
omegajeff said:
Sweet site! How have I not run across this before?!?! I found measurements for some other speakers I've been interested in, but most specifically the GoldenEar Triton Reference. But, like has been debated before, numbers are one thing. Room dynamics, electronics, cables (gasp!!) all have an influence on the sound. I really need to find a good dealer in the Bay Area that has some of the brands I'm interested in and go do some listening. Or buy them, enjoy them for a few years and sell them at a deep deep deep discount. LOL!
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Floyd Toole in his decades of research found an 85 percent correlation between speakers that measured well and those that were preferred in A/B blind comparisons.

So not iron clad.

My main speakers measured well on that site but my speakers in my secondary room measured poorly on another site, nevertheless, I like them both very much.

Weirdly in my secondary room the speakers that measured poorly when Sound & Vision tested them measure nearly perfectly using REW and Umik in my room so, as you say, nothing beats trying speakers at home.

Crutchfield is an excellent resource to consider at they have a return policy of 60 days and just $10/box to return stand mound speakers and $75/pair to return towers.
 
D

DReg350

Well-known member
I hate Sam. He's my uber high end audiophile buddy, who's really just a crack dealer. I went to see him today to help him assemble a German made dog crate, but that's another story.

He sent me home with a pair of 2 meter Nordost Frey 2 speaker cables that retail for $3,069.99. Something I'll NEVER buy. Holy crap. These things are amazing! I'm hearing all kinds of wonderful I've not heard from my system before. And just like the Red Dawns walked all over my previous set of Blue Heavens... the Freys just stomp all over the Red Dawns. WAY more bass. DAMN YOU, SAM!! :mad

Oh well. They're mine for a month. I wonder if I could just tell him the dog ate 'em. :dunno
 
TerryM

TerryM

--/\~
I sometimes wonder if cable companies conceive and tune a whole range in advance (rather than sequential releases and incremental improvements) so that once you're introduced, you're hooked. You know, like Blue Heaven leads to Red Dawn leads to Frey leads to Valhalla. Seems like smoke and mirrors until you listen, then it's voodoo.
 
GAJ

GAJ

Well-known member
TerryM said:
I sometimes wonder if cable companies conceive and tune a whole range in advance (rather than sequential releases and incremental improvements) so that once you're introduced, you're hooked. You know, like Blue Heaven leads to Red Dawn leads to Frey leads to Valhalla. Seems like smoke and mirrors until you listen, then it's voodoo.
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Yeah.

No! :laughing

One of the third rails of audio.

Another that comes to mind is DACs.

In the Vinyl days, (which have somewhat returned), the "voodoo" was hot and heavy.
 
D

DReg350

Well-known member
Well... I'll be the first to admit that I initially thought all the hubbub about cabling was a bunch or horse shit. A silly argument used to justify spending more money on needless audio crap.

Then Johnkol loaned me a good collection of interconnects to try. Damned if different cables didn't actually change the sound! Then a few other buddies loaned me more cables. Some of them produced subtle change while others were dramatic... like these Freys.

Too me though, the challenge is matching a pair of cables, be they speaker or interconnects, to any given system. There's no manual, or consistent guide that I've ever been able to find. So, it's all experimentation. I suppose this could be accomplished, as GAJ pointed out, by selecting a vendor with a good long return and refund policy giving the listener/purchaser a good amount of time to audition the cable, and return it if it doesn't satisfy.

Tube amps are also a bit trickier in that most don't have bass and treble adjustments like a lot of solid state amps do. So, we're left to tube roll, cable roll, and I suppose... speaker roll.

All that said, it's fun discovering that my system still has the potential to sound better and better if I'm skilled, or in my case lucky enough to find a new component that exploits that potential. :thumbup
 
GAJ

GAJ

Well-known member
DReg350 said:
Well... I'll be the first to admit that I initially thought all the hubbub about cabling was a bunch or horse shit. A silly argument used to justify spending more money on needless audio crap.

Then Johnkol loaned me a good collection of interconnects to try. Damned if different cables didn't actually change the sound! Then a few other buddies loaned me more cables. Some of them produced subtle change while others were dramatic... like these Freys.

Too me though, the challenge is matching a pair of cables, be they speaker or interconnects, to any given system. There's no manual, or consistent guide that I've ever been able to find. So, it's all experimentation. I suppose this could be accomplished, as GAJ pointed out, by selecting a vendor with a good long return and refund policy giving the listener/purchaser a good amount of time to audition the cable, and return it if it doesn't satisfy.

Tube amps are also a bit trickier in that most don't have bass and treble adjustments like a lot of solid state amps do. So, we're left to tube roll, cable roll, and I suppose... speaker roll.

All that said, it's fun discovering that my system still has the potential to sound better and better if I'm skilled, or in my case lucky enough to find a new component that exploits that potential. :thumbup
Click to expand...

If they bring you joy and you can afford it by all means have at it.

Borrowing and trying is a great avenue for sure.
 
johnkol

johnkol

Well-known member
TerryM said:
Seems like smoke and mirrors until you listen, then it's voodoo.
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It is certainly not voodoo; I have measured numerous audiophile cables, and there are considerable differences between them, some of them quite stark. However, correlating those measured differences to audible differences is something that, to my knowledge, has never been done, and it would be quite a project to undertake.

Personally, I have not heard such dramatic cable differences as what Greg experienced, but Greg is using tube amps, which are more sensitive to cable characteristics.
 
russ69

russ69

Backside Slider
johnkol said:
...Personally, I have not heard such dramatic cable differences as what Greg experienced, but Greg is using tube amps, which are more sensitive to cable characteristics.
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Yes, very dependent on your amp and loudspeakers and how they react with the electrical parameter differences.
 
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