Trailbraking (split from The Right Start in 1Rider)

Hank Wong

Well-known member
There are a lot of people out there who belabor things that don’t matter much. The excessive focus on the “smoothness” of transitioning off the gas and onto the brakes is one of these areas, IMO.

Agree!

Stop belaboring the percentages. Ride by feel, not by a diagram.

In all my years of trail braking, I never ONCE thought about how many percent I am on brake and how many percent I am on throttle while I am in the middle of a turn. I think you pretty much will know if your transition is not smooth, or if you're going too fast into the turn for your own good. One way to practice a smoother transition and to compensate for entering a turn too fast is to pretend the turn radius changes while you're still turning by switching line within the lane during the turn. Do this in turns that you are familiar with and in conditions well under control, i.e. not too fast. A shift to a line with a tighter radius makes you either lean some more or to reapply a little brake. A looser radius will make you lean less and to release the brakes sooner. Either way, it is one way to get more practice on modulating the brakes and throttle while turning.
 
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ejv

Untitled work in progress
This was in a Nick Ienatsch article from today on Cycleworld.com. This is the first paragraph for question 3 in the article. Just the opinion of a different well respected moto trainer.



https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bl...torcycle-lessons-beyond-the-classroom-part-7/


"We look at the pair of relatively narrow tires and realize traction wouldn’t be difficult to lose if we’re abrupt. We note the suspension travel and see that the suspension must get loaded before the tire gets loaded. We look at pictures of bikes braking and accelerating and see the vast difference in tire contact patches between the two actions. Because of this loading, we know that using the front brake and the throttle at the same time is a recipe for disaster."
 

stangmx13

not Stan
Agree!

Stop belaboring the percentages. Ride by feel, not by a diagram.

In all my years of trail braking, I never ONCE thought about how many percent I am on brake and how many percent I am on throttle while I am in the middle of a turn. I think you pretty much will know if your transition is not smooth, or if you're going too fast into the turn for your own good. One way to practice a smoother transition and to compensate for entering a turn too fast is to pretend the turn radius changes while you're still turning by switching lane in the middle of the turn. Do this in turns that you are familiar with and in conditions well under control. A shift to tighter radius will make you either lean some more or to reapply a little brake. A looser radius will make you release the brakes sooner. Either way, it is one way to get more practice on modulating the brakes and throttle while turning.

Numbers are useful when trying to communicate technique. Saying “ride by feel” is not helpful - it’s like telling someone “oh you’ll figure it out”, which of course isn’t always true as everyone is different. Instruction works and numbers can make instruction easier.
 

Hank Wong

Well-known member
Numbers are useful when trying to communicate technique. Saying “ride by feel” is not helpful - it’s like telling someone “oh you’ll figure it out”, which of course isn’t always true as everyone is different. Instruction works and numbers can make instruction easier.

Well, do you realize that the 80/20, 60/40 percentage breakdowns are just plain wrong? It isn't a zero sum game. There is no limit on how many percent you apply to either the front brake, the rear brake or the throttle during a turn. Hell, if you really want to crash, you can apply 100% on all three during a turn.
And besides, unless you are riding a bike with integrated brakes, you can apply whatever you want to either brakes, i.e. I apply only the rear brake and some throttle during a tight U turn.
Besides, how can one talk about single track vehicle taking a turn without talking about lean angle traction patch and suspension.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
It’s true that riders don’t have instrumentation to tell them what percentage of weight is on either wheel or how much traction remains. Expressing ideas in terms of numbers helps to explain the goal of a given control action but the rider still doesn’t have anything to measure this with.

Riding by feel is something we all do. Feel has more meaning if you have an idea of what you’re trying to accomplish and what it feels like when you’re in the ballpark. More helpful than “ride by feel” is to attempt to explain what it should feel like. Some people want to know why and some don’t.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
Well, do you realize that the 80/20, 60/40 percentage breakdowns are just plain wrong? It isn't a zero sum game. There is no limit on how many percent you apply to either the front brake, the rear brake or the throttle during a turn. Hell, if you really want to crash, you can apply 100% on all three during a turn.
And besides, unless you are riding a bike with integrated brakes, you can apply whatever you want to either brakes, i.e. I apply only the rear brake and some throttle during a tight U turn.
Besides, how can one talk about single track vehicle taking a turn without talking about lean angle traction patch and suspension.

Another important part of using numbers to convey instruction is to make sure their meaning is explicit. It seems the numbers in the charts above werent explicit to you, as no one else even considered the idea that the percentages may have to add to 100. They dont.

Remember that these diagrams/numbers are for instruction. These numbers are a goal for successful riding (at least when correct). So who cares if its possible to apply 100% throttle and brake in a corner. No instructor would put that in a diagram because it would cause a crash as you said.
 

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are you sure about the "no overlap" part? How can you "transition" without any overlap? Smoothly rolling off the throttle, rather than chopping it, is good. But waiting until you get to fully closed before initiating braking makes no sense, and is not what happens.

Your comment here is a good place to backup, Tom. The answer is: there is no overlap because there is a neutral phase in between being off the brakes and picking up the throttle. I used to be of the belief that I wanted to be opening the throttle as I was off the brake lever and have done that for years. It's a smooth way to ride, but I've always had one problem, that last 15% or so of steering needed in a corner.

I stumbled on this when telling my friend who was helping me during the 18-19' seasons, about a conversation I had with someone on how to pickup the throttle as smooth as possible as soon as one's off the brake. His comment was "wait, you know there's a phase where you're not on the brake and you're not on the throttle when the bike actually steers, right"? Of course, I tried to say, "well yeah..." which is when he took me task for bullshitting. He's absolutely correct; the bike makes it's biggest directions change when it's neither control is applied and not doing so means we're still making a direction change when we pick up the throttle.

With the new info, I've gone out and worked on this. It's much more beneficial on a large bike, but on my 600 it makes my throttle application stronger and with less concern if I'm going to run off the outside of a corner at any point. I'm pointed where I want to go better and as I also found, it's easier. Without any race laps in, only TD's, it's hard to know how much faster it is. It makes plenty of sense though; brakes and throttle bring the chassis upright. Lean angle = steering angle and thus, a mid point with the max lean angle (for a rider) is the quickest way to steer the motorcycle around a corner.

The friend who helps me is very well known as a coach and rider. I trust the info and confirmed it with another well known rider/ coach.

So far, everyone providing positive anecdotes for overlap are NOT advocating 50% throttle & 50% brake like the diagram above shows. That's a good start.

Amen. I can only imagine the only reason for 'overlap' is keeping a 2-stroke in the power band, which the rear wheel should do anyway...I can't even understand the concept of overlap our how it helps with turning a motorcycle.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
Berto, when u say "steering", you mean "turning" or "changing direction"? You dont mean "applying an input to the bars", correct?

A slightly related point:
Combining "on the throttle right away" with "not holding some brake far enough into the corner" is an amazing way to not accomplish enough turning. That's how all those B-group trackday riders drag so much knee halfway to the exit of a turn while going so slow. They never tightened the radius enough and then widened it early. This sends them to the exit curb and/or causes them to apply throttle too slow. It takes national-race-winning skill to brake effectively all the way to the "open throttle" point of a corner to have no coasting. For us mere mortals, its safer and faster to brake lighter to the apex or coast a tiny bit near there.
 

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
Correct Robert: front wheel steering. Not actively turning the bars, but the bike steering.

Zemke's the guy who enlightened me to the idea of a short phase where there's no throttle/ brake input. Previously, I didn't have any coasting, but at the same time, as soon as I opened up my exist with throttle, the bike was a hair off the direction I needed it to be. On a 600, it's easy enough to finish on the side of the tire. A 1K...a bit more of a happening. Different corners mean different application...
 

stangmx13

not Stan
At the front of expert grids, I think that half second near the apex is really dependent on the bike and the rider. Some bikes/setups turn great off the brakes. Others run wide the instant the front end comes up. For some reason, Ive always liked my front end tall and generally need to hold the brake on longer than some. If I brake harder sooner, I get passed. If I release the lever sooner, Im wide. But I can see that some of my peers dont ride like that. My coasting distance will always be a little shorter compared to those other riders, no matter the corner. And of course, Im talking feet and tenths. So its not huge differences.
 
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tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
Berto, it makes sense that the arc will tighten more in the period where you are off the brakes, as the brakes tend to countersteer the bike upright. Off the brakes, the lean angle is easier to hold and since you're coasting at that point, speed is still decreasing, which will contribute to tightening the line.

A lot of people believe that applying throttle picks up the bike. This isn't really the case; there is no force acting on a tire that would stand the bike up as there is when on the front brake. When the bike stands up on the gas, it's the rider standing it up.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
Your comment here is a good place to backup, Tom. The answer is: there is no overlap because there is a neutral phase in between being off the brakes and picking up the throttle. I used to be of the belief that I wanted to be opening the throttle as I was off the brake lever and have done that for years. It's a smooth way to ride, but I've always had one problem, that last 15% or so of steering needed in a corner.

I stumbled on this when telling my friend who was helping me during the 18-19' seasons, about a conversation I had with someone on how to pickup the throttle as smooth as possible as soon as one's off the brake. His comment was "wait, you know there's a phase where you're not on the brake and you're not on the throttle when the bike actually steers, right"? Of course, I tried to say, "well yeah..." which is when he took me task for bullshitting. He's absolutely correct; the bike makes it's biggest directions change when it's neither control is applied and not doing so means we're still making a direction change when we pick up the throttle.

With the new info, I've gone out and worked on this. It's much more beneficial on a large bike, but on my 600 it makes my throttle application stronger and with less concern if I'm going to run off the outside of a corner at any point. I'm pointed where I want to go better and as I also found, it's easier. Without any race laps in, only TD's, it's hard to know how much faster it is. It makes plenty of sense though; brakes and throttle bring the chassis upright. Lean angle = steering angle and thus, a mid point with the max lean angle (for a rider) is the quickest way to steer the motorcycle around a corner.

The friend who helps me is very well known as a coach and rider. I trust the info and confirmed it with another well known rider/ coach.

Wow. If we had a smiley for "over my head" I would insert it here, Berto. Your comment here and the follow ups from Stang and TZRider are all reflecting a level of skill that is beyond where I got up to before I quit renewing my AFM license.

I did, however, have a chance yesterday to borrow a buddy's Harley Dyna (you mentioned something about it working better on a large bike - that'd qualify) and take it for a nice spin through some of West Marin's finest twisties, with this thread uploaded into my riding brain.

And I was definitely having fun trying to see how much speed I could carry through a tight corner while using the combination of easing off the front brake while rolling on the throttle to fine tune my line and exit point. Unlike the track, there's no runoff or rumble strip - it's the fog line and then a bent bike.

What you guys are talking about is a level of refinement on cornering that 99% of riders will never get remotely close to or even think about, I suspect. Very illuminating.

I'm going to have to go back out on the Dyna now, and check out this coasting you speak of. First I've heard of it. Love it!

Thanks for hanging in on this thread - it's a turning into a goodie.
 
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darkie

Dylan Code
Butting into the conversation here. I have datalogs from MotoGP, Moto2, World Superbike, and MotoAmerica Superbikes. None of the logs I have seen show any riders overlapping front brake and throttle.

Occasionally you will see some riders applying the rear brake as the front brake is being released mid turn, with occasional overlap of rear brake and throttle application.

By the way Keith Code and his Superbike School do teach trail braking. I know for sure because I do classroom briefings at the school. Level 2, 5th exercise.

With that out of the way, in canyon rides, I can see a rider wanting to slightly overlap the brake and throttle if the bike surges suddenly when initially applying the throttle, or pitches forward harshly when closing the throttle which some bikes do.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
That was a fun thread. We hit on a few new topics in this one.

This has been a fun thread - full of great info. I’ve found that sometimes recycling topics like this gets a lot of play, because new riders keep coming into the fold and don’t bother going very far back in time to read old threads. Or even experienced riders sometimes aren’t ready to learn whatever it is when it pops up, and then they are.

So - on to the next one.

I’ll take countersteering for $200, Alex... :laughing
 

sk8norcal

Well-known member
Look what I found

Who would have thunk we discussed this before.

I listed that same canyonchaser video earlier in this thread. Very well done video, I always recommend that one first to new people I come across.

There has been a lot of youtube mc training content on youtube added this past 3 years. I remember looking on youtube when I first started (3 years ago), and watching the old keith code's twist of the wrist video that someone uploaded.

I am wondering, has motorcycle training (post beginner class) / track days gotten more popular over the last 10 years?
 

Maslov

Member
I listed that same canyonchaser video earlier in this thread. Very well done video, I always recommend that one first to new people I come across.

There has been a lot of youtube mc training content on youtube added this past 3 years. I remember looking on youtube when I first started (3 years ago), and watching the old keith code's twist of the wrist video that someone uploaded.

I am wondering, has motorcycle training (post beginner class) / track days gotten more popular over the last 10 years?

I really think it has. I’d say for the better too. It seems there is a bit more consistency in what is being instructed too. My buddy and I are hoping to do YCRS some time this year, and I look forward to actually having live instruction vs watching some of the video. I got a couple days of training with Geoff May, and all we did was work on throttle and acceleration. I dropped about 5 seconds of my best lap. Just shows that with good habits and repeatable process people can get faster.
 
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