Trailbraking (split from The Right Start in 1Rider)

sk8norcal

Well-known member
A thread in General tuned me in to Bret Tkacs,

He is more known through Youtube for teaching ADV riding techniques when he was a host on mototrek.

He claims he wrote the current beginner training curriculum for Washington.

Here's a podcast of his on trail braking.
https://brettkacs.com/trail-braking/

13:20 he talks about "introducing" trail braking in the very first class (versus what the msf/cmsp is doing now)

38:18 and that trail braking is not an advance technique or track technique.


youtu.be/mnUckCA-krM
 
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ThinkFast

Live Long
He is more know through Youtube for teaching ADV riding techniques when he was a host on mototrek.

He claims he wrote the current beginner training curriculum for Washington.

Here's a podcast of his on trail braking.
https://brettkacs.com/trail-braking/

13:20 he talks about "introducing" trail braking in the very first class (versus what the msf/cmsp is doing now)

38:18 and that trail braking is not an advance technique or track technique.


youtu.be/mnUckCA-krM

Nice find. In the YT video he says:
The problem with picking an apex is you need to have all the other points first.
Apex’s are a byproduct of the exit and the entry. The exit is the most important point.

THIS QUOTE IS GOLD!

Also, later in the snippet you included, he has a diagram showing percent of brake and throttle at different stages of the corner, and how the goal is to modulate a smooth transition between them. On the one hand, I guess this is something you have to do if you’re going to buy into his trail braking for beginners philosophy - else how do you manage a smooth transition from brake to throttle while leaned over and trail braking?

OTOH, I’m not sure this is something I would consider a beginning rider technique. Very effective, but perhaps learned best after getting comfortable with the textbook cornering approach. Dunno.
 

sk8norcal

Well-known member
Also, later in the snippet you included, he has a diagram showing percent of brake and throttle at different stages of the corner, and how the goal is to modulate a smooth transition between them.

at 1:10 on the podcast, he talks a bit of difference in philosophy between him, Nick, and Lee. (and Keith who doesn't really promote trail braking)

attachment.php


OTOH, I’m not sure this is something I would consider a beginning rider technique. Very effective, but perhaps learned best after getting comfortable with the textbook cornering approach. Dunno.

yeah, I see this is often debated. (Personally, not a fan of the "textbook" approach). I would say there is strong current trend towards learning trail braking ASAP, part of that comes from many motorcycle trainers going on YouTube promoting trail braking. (like it or not, YouTube has become a huge factor in the world of the motorcycle training)

This one has been my favorite and has helped me the most when starting out.

youtu.be/gPE67XqGsV4
 

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ThinkFast

Live Long
attachment.php


yeah, I see this is often debated. (Personally, not a fan of the "textbook" approach). I would say there is strong current trend towards learning trail braking ASAP, part of that comes from many motorcycle trainers going on YouTube promoting trail braking. (like it or not, YouTube has become a huge factor in the world of the motorcycle training)

Interesting.

The other thing I forgot to mention is, I was wondering why he didn't put a marker in that diagram for the location of the apex. I kept expecting one to pop in there, but it never did (at least not in the 9 min clip).

And speaking of apexes, he doesn't actually completely define trail braking the way I've heard it in the past: continuing your braking past the corner entry all the way to the apex. The assumption being that max lean angle coincides with reaching the apex; and once you're at maximum lean, you should have tapered your braking down to zero and begun rolling on the throttle as you start to pick the bike up. Which is why I was looking for a marker for the apex in his diagram - was expecting to see that braking goes to zero at the apex.
 
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Enchanter

Ghost in The Machine
Staff member
Interesting.

The other thing I forgot to mention is, I was wondering why he didn't put a marker in that diagram for the location of the apex. I kept expecting one to pop in there, but it never did (at least not in the 9 min clip).

And speaking of apexes, he doesn't actually completely define trail braking the way I've heard it in the past: continuing your braking past the corner entry all the way to the apex. The assumption being that max lean angle coincides with reaching the apex; and once you're at maximum lean, you should have tapered your braking down to zero and begun rolling on the throttle as you start to pick the bike up. Which is why I was looking for a marker for the apex in his diagram - was expecting to see that braking goes to zero at the apex.

I don't think that trailbraking requires the brakes to be used all the way to the apex.

Wiki:
Trail braking is a driving and motorcycle riding technique where the brakes are used beyond the entrance to a turn (turn-in), and then gradually released (trailed off). Depending on a number of factors, the driver fully releases brake pressure at any point between turn-in and the apex of the turn.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
I don't think that trailbraking requires the brakes to be used all the way to the apex.

Wiki:
Trail braking is a driving and motorcycle riding technique where the brakes are used beyond the entrance to a turn (turn-in), and then gradually released (trailed off). Depending on a number of factors, the driver fully releases brake pressure at any point between turn-in and the apex of the turn.

Fair enough (guess my head was back on the track... :cool).

OTOH, that doesn't really change the point I was trying make - which is that the diagram doesn't show an apex at all. And by the looks of it, let's say the apex is somewhere in the orange area, which he's calling 50/50. It looks to me like he's showing some use of the brakes past the apex, that's all I was pointing out.

Would love to ask him about that and see what he says.

Next time I ride I'm definitely going to see what I do on this front. Haven't thought about it technically for years.

(BTW, nice job splitting this out into its own thread.).
 
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stangmx13

not Stan
Sometimes I trail brake past the apex of the corner :D. But that entirely depends on your definition of "apex". Some have it mean the closest point to the inside of the turn. Some have it mean the slowest point. Some have it mean the place of tightest turning radius. Sometimes all 3 of those are the same point, but def not always.

I think trail braking as a beginner technique fails because magnitude of braking isnt taught well enough. Braking is never on/off, but that small amount of nuance may not be explained all that well. I dont think its hard for someone to drag the brakes, ie 5% braking. And its safe to drag the brakes in nearly all riding situations. So IMO it can be a beginner technique .

The diagram above about throttle/brake overlap is garbage. Hes correct that anti-squat increases rear traction and throttle causes anti-squat. But using overlap is to increase rear traction is pointless. Modern bikes and tires are already designed to give plenty of rear traction even when very very hard on the front brake. Off-throttle highsides are NOT super common, even for racers that are pushing braking deeper than any street rider would. So, we already have enough rear traction and dont need to add to it with overlap. Plus, the whole point of braking is to slow down. Overlap will decrease your deceleration, forcing someone to brake harder with the front brake. That's not worth the extra rear traction. On top of all that, the %'s given are way way off. Holding the brake during the start of acceleration phase is the worst part, since we already know that throttle is already adding traction from anti-squat.
 
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sk8norcal

Well-known member
The diagram above about throttle/brake overlap is garbage.

Interesting points. So for street riding, you recommend no blending at all?

image from Nick Ienatsch (bought his book a while back, still need to read it ;) )
https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/
"The confused “safety experts” in this country would have everyone believe that speed and safety are mutually exclusive"

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tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
Working the rear tire against the front is a pretty good way to lose the front. I wouldn’t “blend” brakes and gas anywhere.

There are riders who say they work the gas against the rear brake, which isn’t inherently as dangerous but still has the issue Stang raises of increasing deceleration distance.
 

afm199

Well-known member
Working the rear tire against the front is a pretty good way to lose the front. I wouldn’t “blend” brakes and gas anywhere.

There are riders who say they work the gas against the rear brake, which isn’t inherently as dangerous but still has the issue Stang raises of increasing deceleration distance.

This. Easy way to crash.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
Fair enough (guess my head was back on the track... :cool).

<SNIP>

(BTW, nice job splitting this out into its own thread.).

Agreed on the split. :thumbup

Left the first part in because old habits die hard. It still applies for me on the street, because muscle memory and that application being the deal for me for a few years.

On the street it is not done as agressively but I still do it.
Sometimes I trail brake past the apex of the corner :D. But that entirely depends on your definition of "apex". Some have it mean the closest point to the inside of the turn. Some have it mean the slowest point. Some have it mean the place of tightest turning radius. Sometimes all 3 of those are the same point, but def not always.

I think trail braking as a beginner technique fails because magnitude of braking isnt taught well enough. Braking is never on/off, but that small amount of nuance may not be explained all that well. I dont think its hard for someone to drag the brakes, ie 5% braking. And its safe to drag the brakes in nearly all riding situations. So IMO it can be a beginner technique .

The diagram above about throttle/brake overlap is garbage. Hes correct that anti-squat increases rear traction and throttle causes anti-squat. But using overlap is to increase rear traction is pointless.
<SNIP>

Holding the brake during the start of acceleration phase is the worst part, since we already know that throttle is already adding traction from anti-squat.

Agree on all.. except I am not all on board with a beginner technique if being applied on the street. On the track yes. Great place to learn it. If applied on the street then a gentle application repeated often is the right way to give it a try, but I think it still add a bit of additional danger for a newish rider.


Working the rear tire against the front is a pretty good way to lose the front. I wouldn’t “blend” brakes and gas anywhere.

There are riders who say they work the gas against the rear brake, which isn’t inherently as dangerous but still has the issue Stang raises of increasing deceleration distance.

Nor do I (bolded part).

I see no benefit in street riding, but there may be a couple of exceptions like steep uphill tight turns where stalling is a concern.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
Working the rear tire against the front is a pretty good way to lose the front. I wouldn’t “blend” brakes and gas anywhere.

I’m not sure if it’s the same thing or not, but when I was racing I definitely took the time to learn how to slowly let off the front brake as I cracked the throttle and started rolling on the gas in order to facilitate a smooth transition from braking to accelerating without upsetting the suspension. I continue to use this in street riding, and I find it very effective.

Is that the same thing as “blending” or working the rear against the front?
 
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Gravisman

Aspiring Racer
Blending gas and brake is a technique that should be taught to nobody except maybe a racer looking for a extra half a tenth on their lap. It’s so easy to fuck up and there are much more valuable places to spend your attention.
 

sk8norcal

Well-known member
I haven't watched the vid yet, but the image you posted implies it.

from both his video and podcast, he never mentioned he was using blending for extra rear traction.

I am not saying whether I agree with Brett or not, but just listening to what he has to offer.
 

Gary856

Are we having fun yet?
The diagram above about throttle/brake overlap is garbage. Hes correct that anti-squat increases rear traction and throttle causes anti-squat. But using overlap is to increase rear traction is pointless. Modern bikes and tires are already designed to give plenty of rear traction even when very very hard on the front brake. Off-throttle highsides are NOT super common, even for racers that are pushing braking deeper than any street rider would. So, we already have enough rear traction and dont need to add to it with overlap. Plus, the whole point of braking is to slow down. Overlap will decrease your deceleration, forcing someone to brake harder with the front brake. That's not worth the extra rear traction. On top of all that, the %'s given are way way off. Holding the brake during the start of acceleration phase is the worst part, since we already know that throttle is already adding traction from anti-squat.

It's "garbage" when you disagree with the words, but fail to think thru the message. His point on "blending the controls" is to keep tension on the driveline, both front and rear. We should get out of the one dimensional thinking that what racers do on tracks is what street riders should do on streets. "the whole point of braking is to slow down" is an example of the one dimensional thinking; it also affects front-rear weight balance, thus traction. The street is infinitely more varied than tracks, I assume you would agree to this, and Brett was teaching street techniques.
 
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