They Make Patients Die Alone, And We Let Them

[m0t0_ryder]

Having just gone thru my fathers death (non-covid) while he was still living at his house we, the family, had thoughts of what would happen if he were in a hospital and we weren't allowed in.
Just didn't seem like a way to let someone depart the world of the living... alone. By administrative decree.

I think this is discussed well in this video, by two doctors.
I tend to agree with them.


youtu.be/Qjv9E9-k-60

 

[m0t0_ryder]

Wow.

Almost 24 hours later and not a single comment.
This puzzles me.
Must have touched on a sensitive spot. So sensitive as to stifle responses.

I know death is a subject that most avoid, unless it's a moto death when the analyst's jump in to comment.
But I am surprised that the administratively dictated isolation deaths of so many are just taken as a given.

Yeah, I suppose my take has ALWAYS been to question authority. One of the few ways to try to keep authority from running rampant and abusing their authority.

I assume the silence (no replies) indicates acceptance of the "die alone" dictate. That is sad.

 

[Dubermun]

Wow.

Almost 24 hours later and not a single comment.
This puzzles me.
Must have touched on a sensitive spot. So sensitive as to stifle responses.

I know death is a subject that most avoid, unless it's a moto death when the analyst's jump in to comment.
But I am surprised that the administratively dictated isolation deaths of so many are just taken as a given.

Yeah, I suppose my take has ALWAYS been to question authority. One of the few ways to try to keep authority from running rampant and abusing their authority.

I assume the silence (no replies) indicates acceptance of the "die alone" dictate. That is sad.

I agree with what the doctor said. IT should be the persons acceptance of risk. Just like most jobs make you sign a daily waiver saying you accept the risk of working around other people ( while social distancing ). I don't know how I would react being told I couldn't see a dying family member. But people shouldn't take that sitting down. Privatized healthcare is bullshit

 

[ctwo]

I can only speak for me, but I've always considered death a personal thing, a transition that can only be made alone. I have held a man's hand while he died, looking into his eyes as they sank into a blank stare, until the warmth left his body as I held his mouth closed waiting for rigor mortis to set in.

Animals will usually crawl into a hole and hide while they die.

 

[bikeama]

It is not just Covid patients. My sister was in a Hospice care home. No one allowed in, Lodi CA if it matters. I said goodbye to my sister on a cell phone through a glass door. She passed two days later, the restrictions are hitting everyone. And still, people don't want to just wear a mask.

 

[budman]

Just have not had time to watch yet.

I will.

 

[WoodsChick]

Wow.

Almost 24 hours later and not a single comment.

I assume the silence (no replies) indicates acceptance of the "die alone" dictate. That is sad.

Less than 11 hours, actually. And overnight. Don't be so quick to assume or pass judgement.

I agree it should be up to the family members. My sister and I will be having pretty heavy duty surgery tomorrow night, with a fairly substantial emotional element to it, and yet our husbands have to drop us off at 2 in the afternoon and we will not be able to see them until the next day due to timing and Covid protocols at the hospital. We were feeling pretty sorry for ourselves but agreed that it could always be worse, as in having our loved ones die alone.

 

[GAJ]

It is not just Covid patients. My sister was in a Hospice care home. No one allowed in, Lodi CA if it matters. I said goodbye to my sister on a cell phone through a glass door. She passed two days later, the restrictions are hitting everyone. And still, people don't want to just wear a mask.

Terrible.

My deepest sympathies.

I hate hospitals so I am doing everything within reason to avoid ending up in one at this particular point in time!

 

[cheez]

I don't generally think the folks suffering an infectious disease which is taking their life want their families exposed to that disease, even if it means they die alone. I'd rather forgo a hug from my wife than risk her getting sick, suffering, and dying also, personally, if that was a choice I had to make.

I think it's a very noble thing to say one would risk their health to show compassion to others. I just don't think it's something the ill would prefer to keeping their loved ones safe. That's my perspective, at least.

m0t0_ryder, sorry to hear about your dad. bikeama, sorry to hear about your sister. I'd give you both hugs if it were safe to do so. Instead you're in my thoughts and heart. <3

 

[motomania2007]

I did not watch the video.

Several years ago my father, in steeply failing health, multiple strokes, etc, fell and broke his hip.

He was told he was too fragile health to withstand surgery to fix his hip and would be given pain meds and be bedridden til he died. Best estimate 8-12 weeks.

My father said BS. Stop all care immediately and switch to "hospice care".

He died in a hospice facility 9 days later. I was there. I was there when he had his last lucid moments 3 DAYS before he died.

He asked me to give him enough morphine that he would simply go to sleep and not wake up.

Legally, the hospice facility and staff were not allowed to even discuss this with me.

I could not give him the meds he desired to pass calmly BECAUSE THE STAFF CONTROLLED THE MEDS.

I was allowed to only give him small amounts of morphine but not enough to keep him unconscious.

His last 2 hours were horrific to witness, I can't imagine what his thoughts were.

I held my Mother as she wailed as my father experienced "the death rattles.". My Mother and I held my Father as he went through this disgusting, unnecessary process.

I witnessed my sister's, in tears, cowering away from my Father in his last moments.

I don't blame them as it was horrific.

I still feel I failed him in his last moments but I did everything I could to ease his passing.

2 years ago my Mother passed, at home, in her bed, at age 90. This was after a long failing health due to kidney failure.

Since she was home WE CONTROLLED THE MEDS.

I spoke with my Mother numerous times well before her passing and again in her last couple of lucid days.

She requested that she pass peacefully and nothing like what my Father experienced.

Since we controlled the meds, I made sure she was calm in her passing, held her hand, told her how much I loved her and it was time to go be with Dad. She just stopped breathing and a few moments later her heart stopped.

 

[matty]

My sister and I will be having pretty heavy duty surgery tomorrow night, with a fairly substantial emotional element to it

Godspeed to both you and your sister, what you are doing is brave and incredibly nobel:angel

 

[m0t0_ryder]

Less than 11 hours, actually. And overnight. Don't be so quick to assume or pass judgement.

Yeah... sorry. My bad. I thought I had posted that yesterday morning, not evening. Guess the story is just kinda close to home for me. Again, apologies to you and others.

I agree it should be up to the family members. My sister and I will be having pretty heavy duty surgery tomorrow night, with a fairly substantial emotional element to it, and yet our husbands have to drop us off at 2 in the afternoon and we will not be able to see them until the next day due to timing and Covid protocols at the hospital. We were feeling pretty sorry for ourselves but agreed that it could always be worse, as in having our loved ones die alone.

My sincerest wishes for a successful, quick and non-eventful procedure. I recall your post about the group procedure you have undertaken.
My kudos to ou EmpathyChick.

I don't generally think the folks suffering an infectious disease which is taking their life want their families exposed to that disease, even if it means they die alone. I'd rather forgo a hug from my wife than risk her getting sick, suffering, and dying also, personally, if that was a choice I had to make.

I think it's a very noble thing to say one would risk their health to show compassion to others. I just don't think it's something the ill would prefer to keeping their loved ones safe. That's my perspective, at least.

I respect your view and acknowledge that others will also be in this mindset. Both the living and soon not to be.

I just believe that it should be up to the individual(s) to make that decision and not the hospital/hospice administration.
There are safety protocols to protect individuals when around C-19 diagnosed sick people. These are used by all hospital/hospice personnel when attending the sick. They could just as easily be used to protect loved one's while visiting the their terminal loved one.

m0t0_ryder, sorry to hear about your dad. bikeama, sorry to hear about your sister. I'd give you both hugs if it were safe to do so. Instead you're in my thoughts and heart. <3

Thanks cheez.
Death is a fact of life.
My Dad had a long and mostly good one. He died at home with family that loved him in attendance.

<snip>

I still feel I failed him in his last moments but I did everything I could to ease his passing.

So sorry to hear what your Dad (and your family) went thru with your fathers passing. Sounds like the Hospice may have not gone far enough with the comfort drugs.

2 years ago my Mother passed, at home, in her bed, at age 90. This was after a long failing health due to kidney failure.

Since she was home WE CONTROLLED THE MEDS.

I spoke with my Mother numerous times well before her passing and again in her last couple of lucid days.

She requested that she pass peacefully and nothing like what my Father experienced.

Since we controlled the meds, I made sure she was calm in her passing, held her hand, told her how much I loved her and it was time to go be with Dad. She just stopped breathing and a few moments later her heart stopped.

This is how Dad was. At home with visiting Hospice care.
The morphine was administer by family at Dads request. When he hurt he got dosed. He was essentially in a coma the last day and passed peacefully.
I was also able to patch up an old feud between my younger brother and my Dad so that they actually spoke (by phone) for the first time in a few years. This was a very bright spot in dads failing light.

 

[GAJ]

Since we controlled the meds, I made sure she was calm in her passing, held her hand, told her how much I loved her and it was time to go be with Dad. She just stopped breathing and a few moments later her heart stopped.

I will remember that and tell my wife and daughter.

Your Dad's terrible ordeal, and those who loved him, may help me or mine in the end.

Thanks.

 

[Killroy1999]

Wow.

Almost 24 hours later and not a single comment.
This puzzles me.
Must have touched on a sensitive spot. So sensitive as to stifle responses.

I know death is a subject that most avoid, unless it's a moto death when the analyst's jump in to comment.
But I am surprised that the administratively dictated isolation deaths of so many are just taken as a given.

Yeah, I suppose my take has ALWAYS been to question authority. One of the few ways to try to keep authority from running rampant and abusing their authority.

I assume the silence (no replies) indicates acceptance of the "die alone" dictate. That is sad.

Sorry dude, this news that is months old.

 

[m0t0_ryder]

Sorry dude, this news that is months old.

The video was uploaded 12/7/2020. Not quite months old.
Did you watch it?

From their web page...

Vinay Prasad MD MPH is a practicing hematologist-oncologist and Associate Professor of Medicine at the University of California San Francisco. He studies cancer drugs, health policy, and clinical trials and better decision making. He is author of these academic articles, and the books Ending Medical Reversal(2015), and Malignant(2020). He hosts the oncology podcast Plenary Session, and runs a YouTube Channel VinayPrasadMDMPH. He tweets @VPrasadMDMPH.

 

[CABilly]

End of life is one of the few exceptions to the visiting policy my facility allows. In the beginning, no visitors were allowed for COVID patients.

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about it. I usually agree with ZDMD but not always. Trusting people to do the right thing is how we got here in the first place. People will NOT do the right thing, in general. They will almost always do what they want and try to justify it after the fact.

A simple verbal agreement to quarantine doesn't seem strong enough. I don't want people to die alone but I also don't want to give the virus more opportunity to spread. It's a tough situation for everyone.

 

[Climber]

End of life is one of the few exceptions to the visiting policy my facility allows. In the beginning, no visitors were allowed for COVID patients.

Honestly, I don't know how to feel about it. I usually agree with ZDMD but not always. Trusting people to do the right thing is how we got here in the first place. People will NOT do the right thing, in general. They will almost always do what they want and try to justify it after the fact.

A simple verbal agreement to quarantine doesn't seem strong enough. I don't want people to die alone but I also don't want to give the virus more opportunity to spread. It's a tough situation for everyone.

Good points.

Yeah, it sucks that they have to die away from their family, but how many of them are really lucid during the final hours with decreasing oxygen levels in the blood and often (don't know percentage) on ventilator's. Sometimes it's better for the survivor's to remember their loved ones in different settings and conditions.

Also, a room like that would possibly be rife with shedded virus, how many people would die as a result of infections (or secondary or tertiery) from that patient who is dying?

 

[budman]

I don't generally think the folks suffering an infectious disease which is taking their life want their families exposed to that disease, even if it means they die alone. I'd rather forgo a hug from my wife than risk her getting sick, suffering, and dying also, personally, if that was a choice I had to make.

I think it's a very noble thing to say one would risk their health to show compassion to others. I just don't think it's something the ill would prefer to keeping their loved ones safe. That's my perspective, at least.

m0t0_ryder, sorry to hear about your dad. bikeama, sorry to hear about your sister. I'd give you both hugs if it were safe to do so. Instead you're in my thoughts and heart. <3

There is no reason why a person could not where full PPE's and be as safe as a hospital worker.

 

[CABilly]

There is no reason why a person could not where full PPE's and be as safe as a hospital worker.

There are plenty of reasons. My facility has I think 5 different N95 masks for different size faces. Some take almost an hour for the fit testing. Even a very short beard can negate the mask. People don't know how to properly don and doff PPE, and we don't quite have the staffing to babysit people and show them how.

In the grand scheme of things, it's PROBABLY OK for most people. But is it just "as safe as a hospital worker?" The answer is no.

 

[budman]

Cool.. Thanks for the feedback Billy.

You obviously know way better than I!