The Charging System Thread

[D'Ecosse]

Great info on charging system and R/R's here as well:
http://eviltwinsbk.com/forumz/index.php?topic=276.0

Here's a detailed, but useful link:

http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-tri...-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html

Its Triumph specific, but there's useful info to be had.

I don't know the guy who wrote it (lives in Pleasanton).

Those are both authored by me.
Please note that on the T'Rat thread, I have just added (today) a new reference on Series Regulators. For those bike models that are prone to high incidence of stator failures, a Series Regulator should definitely be a prime consideration.
There are two readily available on the market:
The Shindengen SH755 is same form factor as the MOSFET FH012/020 Regulators - although the SH775 is SCR is a hugely different animal from OEM SCR SHUNT Regulators, so don't be put off by fact is not MOSFET.
This device is used as OEM equipment on Polaris ATV/Utility vehicles. Cost new can be had for under $70
The Compufire 55402 is purely after-market device (primarily aimed at Harley market) - this device is well-proven in the field in several applications where there is known to be high incidence of stator fails.

Bottom line is that the stator reliability will be greatly improved by utilizing a Series vs Shunt Regulator.

The very simplest test for a failed stator is to check resistance (isolation actually) between any one (doesn't matter which - all will measure the same, either good or bad) of the three stator terminals to engine ground: there should be isolation i.e. infinite resistance or open circuit - NOT Short
If you measure short (or any resistance really) then stator is burned.
Invariably most stators will read short when they burn as the winding insulation is fried and they will short to the core.
A short is 100% certainty stator is bad.
Isolation is not a guarantee of 'good' however excellent odds that it is.
To confirm (only if passes the isolation test) start bike with stator disconnected from R/R - measure AC Volts between the three possible combinations of pins i.e. 1-2, 2-3, 3-1 (does not matter which you call 1, 2 & 3) - all three should be the same at any given constant engine rpm (easiest to do at idle since the speed will be constant) If one reading is noticably lower than the other two, that phase is suspect.
Again, normally if it passes the isolation test it will also pass the voltage test.
If fails the isolation, don't even bother doing the voltage test.

Good Luck!

p.s. I specialize in Motorcycle Electrics Diagnosis/Repair - if anyone in Bay Area needs help in that regard please PM me.

 

[the donald]

this one seems odd to me. 03 gsxr 600.

my bike struggles to start. everything appears fine, i just have to push the button REALLY hard, and then it starts right up.

i just had my charging system changed, and the bike was fine, about a week later this started.

 

[D'Ecosse]

.... my bike struggles to start. everything appears fine, i just have to push the button REALLY hard, and then it starts right up.... .

That would be unrelated to charging system - sounds like your starter switch contacts are possibly burned or corroded.

 

[Ironbutt]

p.s. I specialize in Motorcycle Electrics Diagnosis/Repair - if anyone in Bay Area needs help in that regard please PM me.

It's not often we see such well articulated posts about electrical problems; I think this earns you a 'BARF diagnostician' crown.

The crown isn't protective head gear so be careful riding with it. :laughing

 

[D'Ecosse]

Thanks Ironbutt - appreciated.

A piece of equipment I would definitely recommend is some type of voltage monitoring device.
My personal preference and endorsement goes to the Sparkbright LED monitor
http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/products.html

It is inexpensive, tiny / relatively unobtrusive but gives you all the information you need for reassurance your generating system is functioning as it should.
My personal choice is the 5mm size - it's really small, ideal for bike use without having a big 'beacon' on your dash.
(the main product page says 8 or 10, but the 5mm is also available when you go to the buy info page)

He now has a new product he calls the Eclipse which is auto-dimming - reduced intensity for lower ambient light conditions so it is bright enough for daytime, but automatically reduces to avoid overwhelming glare at night. Nice feature & is automatic!

I have no affiliation with Sparkbright, just a happy customer. I have them on both my street bikes.

 

[frozenduc]

Thanks for the heads up on this nice monitor d Ecosse. I queried them as to what the triggering voltages are for each color. Upon their response I'll order two today.

 

[cfives]

Nice sticky, thanks! Found the regulator/rectifier on my sv650 was shot when i followed the steps when putting in a new battery.

 

[WTF_BBQ]

I'm new to this board, but not to bikes/cars. Just stumbled upon this out of curiosity.

This is very well written. The stuff about voltage is especially useful and often misunderstood. People seem to think that a 12v system is 12v all the time. Nope. That wouldn't get you very far. ~14.4 is ideal, as explained above.

Thanks!

 

[D'Ecosse]

Series Regulators for Improved Stator Reliability

In the case of those bikes which suffer high prevalence of stator fails, then a better choice (than MOSFET Shunt) in the R/R department is to go with a Series Regulator.
Yes the choice of R/R design can really make a difference in the longevity of your stator!*

I was one of the first early adopters & promoters of the MOSFET R/R - however important to note that this is primarily to address high failure SCR Shunt Regulators.
The MOSFET Shunt R/R is a HUGE improvement in reliability of the R/R itself - however will do nothing to offer any insurance for the stator.
It works identically to the SCR in that it shunts peak current from & directly across the stator winding.

So the best solution for preserving stator is to use a Series Regulator rather than the predominantly common Shunt designs.

There are not too many choices out there - one that is extremely well proven is the Compufire 55402
A true Series Regulator, it is rated at 40A and is well established & has documented success with good reliability.

A Champion of this module is a gentleman who goes by 'posplayr' - you can find a lot of data & endorsements of this module on the GS Forum

Here is one piece of his data that summarizes why it is kinder to the stator than a shunt R/R:

It's simple - this type of device only conducts for part of the cycle of the generated wave, dictated by the controller
So instead of shorting the source - and making the stator supply its maximum-capable current - it actually 'opens' or blocks the source.
And hence because there is no shunt current, the stator is supplying much less (only what is demanded by the load i.e. the bike) and so runs cooler.
Cooler means it will no longer be susceptible to frying its insulation and failing.

Why not universally endorse this over MOSFET R/R? Again simple answer - cheapest price of the Compufire is about $155 shipped (at this time of writing)
If the model in question has a generally good history of stator reliability, then the MOSFET represents possibly better value.
However if failed stators are a concern, then that extra cost pays back real quickly vs having to replace a stator also!
Note from pic above however that it comes with the cables, connectors and fuse for installation (so unlike the Shindengen in that respect where the special Furukawa connectors are required)

There is another Series R/R that has just been identified as a good candidate for the after-market - this one is also made by Shindengen (the primary MOSFET manufacturer) and indeed is actually the exact same form factor as the FH012/020 MOSFET model. This one is designated the SH755. With the same form factor it would utilize the exact same connectors as for the MOSFET
(indeed if you have an FH012/020 installed already, it will plug n play as replacement for that)

This particular unit is a Shindengen SH775 regulator and is used on Polaris models.
It is VERY inexpensive - brand new -
e.g. $73 shipped!!!! ($60 & change plus shipping)
http://polarisparts123.com/partnumber-search/ (enter 4012941)

Polaris REGULATOR-3PH,35A,SERIES,105C for 2011 Polaris R11HR76AG/AR RANGER 6X6 800 EFI 4012941

(or wherever else you can source Polaris parts)

Here's the first shocker - it's SCR based!!!
But major difference in that this is a SERIES config, NOT SHUNT!

Unlike a diode bridge with reverse biased shunt SCRs, the SCRs themselves form the bridge rectifier - again, they only conduct for part of the generated cycle and this is how the output voltage is controlled

Here is a nice simulation that shows how the firing angle of the SCRs determines the output voltage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s24U0GaBx-o#

The big advantage this unit has is - can be found for as low as $70 shipped!!!

The spec is actually 35A - it is rated as 14A completely uncooled but virtually doubles to 27A with only 1m/s of cooling (that equates to moving through air at only 2mph!) and 35A with higher cooling.
The important factor again is that the Series R/R will only draw as much current from the stator as is demanded by the load.
So if you turn the lights off, the stator current will actually go DOWN.
(With a SHUNT system, reducing the bike load merely makes the R/R shunt more current - so the R/R actually generates more heat with less load, but makes no difference to the stator current either way)
And same as you increase rpm - up till saturation, with a shunt R/R the stator current will increase with rpm - so if you are running all day at higher speeds, the stator is going to run much hotter than it will at lower rpms with the same load
But with the Series module, higher rpm does not mean higher stator current.

The SH755 actually comes from Polaris ATV/Utility Vehicle applications - so is used as OEM equipment.
As after-market is less prevalent as yet, fairly recent 'discovery'
So there is less lifetime data of it running at higher current levels (that run in the 15-20A continuous range)
The early adopters are probably less than that, so there is not real data available at this time of writing on reliability long term with sustained high current use.
I would caution AGAINST using this unit on high-rpm motors - testing on bike that runs over 10K redline showed the R/R went out of control beyond this level - it presumably cannot switch at that frequency. But up to 10K rpm appears to do just fine.

The fabulous news is that Shindengen shows TWO MORE Series Regulators at 50A rating currently in development!
Something exciting to look forward to (scroll on down to the bottom of this post for more information)

You can find more on my thread at T'Rat .....

http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade.html.

I have always been a huge advocate/proponent of the MOSFETs - in a lot of bikes they are the answer to low reliability SCR SHUNT Regulators (Which themselves fail predominantly for lack of cooling to remove the incredible heat they generate - they simply self-destruct)
But when stators are failing, the Series type is virtually a no-brainer - the stator will operate with half (or better) of the current that it will with a Shunt regulator - that means the stator runs cooler inherently increasing its reliability and further the rotor epoxy will be less inclined to let go.
The SH755 is less field proven at higher system loads in after-market applications, however the Compufire is.
The Compufire is costly vs a MSOFET - but still cheap insurance vs having to replace a stator - and especially if you have to add rotor into the mix!.

Some have successfully installed Compufire on stators that already show quite a lot of heat 'damage' (discoloured epoxy) *- as long as the stator insulation has not actually broken down, it will most likely continue to operate without further damage (of course there is no reversal of the heat indications on the epoxy, but that in itself is of no consequence). And similarly for the rotor - if it has not yet suffered breaking magnets, it should be fine going forward.

Tests have proven *that the temperature on the Stator cover is significantly lower on a Series Regulated Stator.

Here is a very basic test done by one of my Triumph Friends on his 2007 Triumph Sprint (955cc EFI Triple with Twin Headlights)

Recognize that is the temperature on the COVER! The actual temps of the stator and rotor will be differentiated considerably higher.

And from another forum/thread:

Here's some excellent Thermal Images from a post by oberon on the Aprilia forum with some pics comparing temps with his original Aprilia R/R (SCR Shunt) vs. Compu-Fire (scroll to post #460). *

Here are the pics which are directly sourced from the contributor in the linked thread:

(the first two pics show that the actual Series R/R also runs 'cooler' than the Shunt R/R, installed in the same physical location)

This is a picture of the original aprilia (SCR Shunt) R/R:

and this is a picture of the Compu-Fire 55402 Series Regulator:

....also pictures of the stator cover.

Stator Temp with original R/R:

Stator Temp with Compu-Fire 55402:

Photos courtesy of oberon linked from Aprilia forum

The Compufire comes with a GM WeatherPack type connector already crimped onto the stator input wires and a mating connector is included with it.
For some bizarre reason however, they include the connector shell for the stator end but NOT the terminals!!! *:wall:

Picture courtesy of Andrew Vanis of GS Forum:

Available in the US at NAPA Autoparts - http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Wire-Terminal-GM-Weather-Pack-OEM-Series/_/R-NW_725170_0282444263

You actually want the seals also if you want a true sealed connector -
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx/Wiring-Grommet-Rubber/_/R-NW_725152_0293960868

You can find on EBay out of US or Australia - did not see any listed directly in EBay Europe

You can either swap the OEM Stator Harness Connector to the WeatherPack type or swap the Compufire R/R stator input connector to OEM type (this would be the case for ANY bike)
- Or use any other 3-way connector set of your choosing and swap the stator connector on both R/R & the OEM stator harness as matched set.
I like MetriPacks myself, the WeatherPack is also a good Sealed Connector.

The output wires are already equipped to connect directly to the battery - there is a Fused link for the Positive side. These wires are approx 1m long so will be good to accommodate most locations on the bike for mounting of the module. The wires can of course be trimmed to length as required.
In the picture of the Compufire in the first post you can actually see the stator connector and the FuseHolder Link Wire.

For the SH775, follow same installation instructions as for the MOSFET Shindengen

Now there is also a brand new Series R/R out from Shindengen, on the 2014 Suzuki VStrom 1000

This one may be the best yet!

The Shindengen model # is SH847AA
(It is possibly one of these per the Shindengen spec sheet)

Suzuki Part # 32800-31J00

Not at all the Suzuki on-line parts sources yet, but definitely found several, including BikeBandit even (at $165)

This is cheapest I have seen so far at $142 - http://www.shspowersports.com/fiche_select.asp?mfg=Suzuki&partnumber=32800-31J00

At least it is LISTED as available - would need to check with actual supplier to see what availabilty / lead-time is.

Here is a low-cost way to install the Shindengen SH775 or the new SH847 (or even the MOSFET FH012/020 Shunt units):
Triumph has created an adapter lead for their MOSFET retrofits on the Daytona 675 (Triumph calls it Link Lead) - T2500676 - that is only about $10 USD - ridiculously inexpensive for what it is!

This cable will connect to many different models as-is, or simply change the input & output connectors if you have to (I like to use MetriPack connectors on the stator input regardless).

The summary - Series R/R will result in your stator having to supply significantly less current than with a Shunt Regulator - this means the stator will run much cooler and consequently improve reliability dramatically.

 

[dmaxAl]

Excellent post :thumbup

 

[Junkie]

Are there any R/Rs that're more efficient at producing DC power than other types? My WR450 stator doesn't make that much power, the same is true for aftermarket ones. I'd like to get to use as much power as possible, but want DC (LEDs are a lot more efficient and need it).

Also, is there any reason I can't run a sportbike R/R on the WR? I know for road-going bikes they're pretty universal, and just want to make sure they'll work on a dirtbike.

 

[D'Ecosse]

You can't 'make' power with a different R/R - it's only capable of passing to whatever the limit of stator. With shunt R/R if the demand is greater than the supply, it simply does not shunt. i.e. it's running wide-open. So it's not really an efficiency factor.
Is this a problem throughout the rpm range, or are you just looking at what's happening at idle?

 

[Junkie]

I need to do a little poking around, but it appears that with stock headlight and aftermarket LED taillight it's draining the battery on the freeway (the same thing happened with stock taillight). With the headlight off it charges it somewhat. With the headlight on it will drain it to the point that ignition cuts out at higher rpm, if I then turn the headlight off it's fine (and if I ride lights off for a bit I can then ride lights on for a while too). I need to verify that all of the legs of the stator are hooked up to the R/R, from the factory the bike runs lighting on AC and the only things that run on DC are CDI and starter.

The wiring diagram that I'm looking at indicates that one part of the stator is grounded, and then there are 2 legs that provide power to the bike - one of which is AC to the lights (with the R/R attached in parallel), while the other runs to the R/R, which provides DC power to that side of the circuit. The manual says the DC side is rated at 20W, they don't give a rating for the AC side but the headlight is a 55/60 H4 and the taillight is a 5/20, so I imagine it should be at least 90W.

I don't know what's been done to mine, other than the fact that the lighting runs on DC rather than AC. It's possible that the only change was moving the lighting from AC to DC, in which case it makes sense that the battery drains. Many people will float the ground (not sure quite what this entails) and use a new R/R to convert the bike to DC only like most streetbikes. If all that's been done to mine is converting lighting to DC, I'll need to pick up a new R/R and run properly sized wires from it to the battery. I'd rather go with a quality R/R from a modern streetbike than a not exactly cheap aftermarket one, if I can run a normal R/R.

Here's the wiring diagram: http://lolinter.net/wr450/wr450diagram.pdf and I think this is floating the ground: http://www.bajadesigns.com/docs/tech-info/wr250f-wr450f-stator-mod.pdf

 

[D'Ecosse]

Sounds like indeed your problem is that the lights are off DC circuit, but mod has not been done.
Problem with street bike R/R is that they are all 3 phase. There are possibly other single phase R/R out there if you don't like the BD one.

 

[Junkie]

I confirmed that the R/R is stock.

Will a 3 phase R/R not operate properly if only fed single phase? I guess I'll have to buy one designed for dirtbikes, none of them appear to have a very large heatsink but I suppose they handle far less power than streetbike R/Rs. http://www.ebay.com/itm/191496658170 I suppose I'll buy something like that. I'll also have to float the ground, hopefully I don't screw that part up.

 

[D'Ecosse]

You can just use one phase, but recognize it will only have 1/3 of the power rating
i.e. if it's a 35A R/R, it will only be good for 12 (it's not really quite as simple as divided by 3, but it's a good safe guide)

 

[GixxerDude650]

How long does it take to fully charge the battery? If I plug it in when I get home at 6PM can I do a load test tonight?

If I test the battery before charging, and it is around 11-12V, does that mean the battery is not the issue in the charging system?

 

[Junkie]

What kind of charger?

If the battery is <12v (or even low enough in the 12v range) that indicates that it isn't fully charged.

 

[CBRIDER600]

Can anyone tell me off hand if my 98 cbr600 reg/rect is interchangeable with any other bikes? I have the part number but cant find it in the aftermarket and Honda is just too damn expensive. I was told one a lot of them are interchangeable....is this true?

 

[CyclePath]

This may be a stupid question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. I've got a new battery (the brand is something like AGM) that, after having it on the battery tender over night, tested at 12.55v, which is obviously less than the 12.6 minimum, so is it time to call in the warranty? The reason that I tested it in the first place is that every time I come down in the morning the battery tender is flashing the green and yellow lights, and that's not because the terminals aren't attached properly. I get 13.98v w/ the engine revved, so I'm assuming that my charging system is good, but I'm not sure if that half a degree is worth worrying about.