Random thoughts on bikes and riding

[Gary856]

We all have random thoughts that may not warrant starting a new thread, but collectively they should be interesting to share and discuss.

So, why don't all street bikes come with wide-ratio gear box with a tall top gear for freeway cruising? If a bike could cruise in 6th gear under 60 mph, it's geared too low.

My '02 R1150GS had a tall, over-drive 6th gear, which was great on the freeway, (except its 1st gear could be lower for steep off road trails.) Compared to that, my '08 R1200GS's 6th was a lot shorter. It's torquey engine can easily pull 6th gear under 60mph, which means the engine is revving unnecessarily high (by 500 rpm or more) at 80 mph. I rode an '16 R1200GS Adventure and its 6th also felt too short on the freeway. Same with my '07 KTM 690SM, which limits its appeal on longer trips on the freeway. All these bikes could and should be geared 10-15% taller in 6th, while keeping the 1st gear low.

 

[CDONA]

Wide ratio doesn't help 1/4 mile times, + the potential for a clunk, shifting.
My 08 Hyper, I couldn't run 6th until 75, or it would buck & snatch.
Until it got tuned with new belts and degreed cams, then it could handle 70.
I've always wanted a 1/2 gear lower for first, for dirt.
+1

 

[Whammy]

IDK Gary:wtf
WIll we ever find true bliss and one bike fits every bill?

All Whammy knows is... no matter what a bike offers, when I'm riding i have an ear to ear smile.:thumbup:ride

 

[CDONA]

Wide ratio doesn't help 1/4 mile times, + the potential for a clunk, shifting.
My 08 Hyper, I couldn't run 6th until 75, or it would buck & snatch.
Until it got tuned with new belts and degreed cams, then it could handle 70.
I've always wanted a 1/2 gear lower for first, for dirt.
+1

 

[gixxerjeff]

So, why don't all street bikes come with wide-ratio gear box with a tall top gear for freeway cruising? If a bike could cruise in 6th gear under 60 mph, it's geared too low.

Because individuals have a wide variety of needs and performance expectations. There is no "one size fits all" solution, nor should there be.
Ice cream comes in both chocolate and vanilla for a reason.

 

[Gary856]

Wide ratio doesn't help 1/4 mile times, + the potential for a clunk, shifting.
My 08 Hyper, I couldn't run 6th until 75, or it would buck & snatch.
Until it got tuned with new belts and degreed cams, then it could handle 70.
I've always wanted a 1/2 gear lower for first, for dirt.
+1

You noticed I was mainly talking about the 6th gear not being tall enough, which has nothing to do with 1/4 mile times, and I mentioned the need to keep the first gear low (or lower). If your 6th is too tall until 70-75 (which sounds perfect to me), you could always stay in 5th, and grab another gear when needed at higher speed, so what's the problem?

Because individuals have a wide variety of needs and performance expectations. There is no "one size fits all" solution, nor should there be.
Ice cream comes in both chocolate and vanilla for a reason.

So what's the need for a 6th gear that's not tall enough on the freeway for street riding? We're talking 6-speed gear box, not 2 or 3-speed.

 

[gixxerjeff]

So what's the need for a 6th gear that's not tall enough on the freeway for street riding? We're talking 6-speed gear box, not 2 or 3-speed.

What is your definition or expectation of "tall enough"?
My GSXR1000 will do 180mph in 6th gear. Maybe I'm getting old, but that's tall enough for me.

 

[Gary856]

What is your definition or expectation of "tall enough"?
My GSXR1000 will do 180mph in 6th gear. Maybe I'm getting old, but that's tall enough for me.

I explained what's "not tall enough" in the first post.
If your GSXR is geared to your satisfaction, then you don't have a problem. I didn't mention sport bikes for a reason.

What about those street bikes I mentioned? What's the street use case for a 6th gear that can pull under 60mph, but not tall enough for relaxed cruising at 80mph?

 

[gixxerjeff]

So, why don't all street bikes come with wide-ratio gear box with a tall top gear for freeway cruising? If a bike could cruise in 6th gear under 60 mph, it's geared too low.

Sorry.
I ride that bike almost daily on the street. It even has a license plate and everything. Your use of the word "all" threw me off. I didn't realize the word "all" was a synonym for "specific". My bad.
FWIW, my Bandit 1200S doesn't even have a 6th gear and frankly I really wish it did. I would love to drop the rpm down some at freeway speed.

 

[ScottRNelson]

I've never liked wide ratio gears. The jump between first and second on a stock XR650L is too big for off road use, where it is supposed to be used. On tight, steep trails with stock gearing, there are times when first is too low, but shifting to second puts you too high. It's possible to change second gear to something better, and I've done that to mine, but it should have come that way from the factory. Oh, and it needs a 6th gear.

And now I'm "randomly" wondering why no current motorcycle has more than six gears. I know that a few decades back the racing organizations put a limit of six gears for race bikes because some of the smaller race bikes had like 21 speeds to keep in the very narrow powerband. But why can't there be more gears for the bikes that aren't raced. You can buy cars today with 10 speed transmissions.

Separate from that, I would like to see the return of the dual-range transmission. I had a 1970 kawasaki with one and I know that Suzuki offered it too. I would like to be able to switch to lower gearing on a big adventure bike, maybe a 20% drop, so that I could easily go slower in the real tight stuff. Sometimes you have to go slower than 10 mph, which is idle speed in first gear on a lot of those big bikes.

I'm sure that I can come up with lots of additional "random" thoughts on motorcycles if I think about it for a minute or two. :laughing

 

[Gary856]

Sorry.
I ride that bike almost daily on the street. It even has a license plate and everything. Your use of the word "all" threw me off. I didn't realize the word "all" was a synonym for "specific". My bad.
FWIW, my Bandit 1200S doesn't even have a 6th gear and frankly I really wish it did. I would love to drop the rpm down some at freeway speed.

I started the thread to talk bike/ride and really don't get bogged down with wording, but why does "all" mean "specific"? Are you confusing "all" with "any"? " Why don't all" means some are good (like yours, which wasn't the topic), some are not good (like the ones I mentioned, which is the topic), but clearly not "all" are good.

Re 5 speed gear box, my Buell Ulysses has 5 speed, and it feels fine at 75-80 mph. Thus my point - if a bike is torquey enough with 5 gears for street use, why not make the 6th gear over-drive when needed? You'd want a 6th gear for the Bandit, but only if the 6th is meaningfully tall, otherwise what's the point?

 

[gixxerjeff]

I started the thread to talk bike/ride and really don't get bogged down with wording, but why does "all" mean "specific"? Are you confusing "all" with "any"? " Why don't all" means some are good (like yours, which wasn't the topic), some are not good (like the ones I mentioned, which is the topic), but clearly not "all" are good.

....and then you get bogged down with wording. :rolleyes
I will leave the semantics for others to decipher before this becomes another sprocket thread. (clicks it in to 6th gear and rides away.)

 

[Gary856]

I've never liked wide ratio gears. The jump between first and second on a stock XR650L is too big for off road use, where it is supposed to be used. On tight, steep trails with stock gearing, there are times when first is too low, but shifting to second puts you too high. It's possible to change second gear to something better, and I've done that to mine, but it should have come that way from the factory. Oh, and it needs a 6th gear.

Well, wide ratio doesn't override the need for proper spread. I agree with you that the first 3 or 4 gears shouldn't have too big of a "gap", and a "low range" would be great for off road. But the 5th gear, and certainly 6th gear, often could be spread wider for street use on ADV bikes. If they go thru the trouble of giving us a 6th gear, why not make it tall enough to be really useful?

 

[Gary856]

Next thought is on bar height.

My R1150GS came with bar risers, not sure, but maybe 1.5". I thought it felt high seated, but good while standing, so I never changed it. In comparison, my R1200GS with factory bar height is better seated, not as good standing.

My Ulysses came with a 2" Rox riser, and it made me felt like a small boy pushing a shopping cart. After a few months I decided the Ulysses is more a street tourer than an ADV bike like the GS, and I didn't expect to be standing much on the Uly, so I removed the Rox riser. Only had one ride after that yesterday, but the change felt significant. Now the bar felt a bit far and I had to lean forward a bit, but that made the Uly felt much more sporty, like riding a less revy but much gruntier SV650. I felt much more with the bike in the corners, and I stayed in gear longer than to just upshift and cruise.

In the past I thought why go with anything less than 2" riser, but 2" could be a lot. On that note, it doesn't seem that hard for the factory to come up with quick-release type bar height adjustability for ADV bikes. BMW?

 

[berth]

Next thought is on bar height.

My R1150GS came with bar risers, not sure, but maybe 1.5". I thought it felt high seated, but good while standing, so I never changed it. In comparison, my R1200GS with factory bar height is better seated, not as good standing.

That could simply be the market speak, and updating the handlebars is certainly a minor operation compared to changing gear ratios.

 

[WWWobble]

I notice that Gary's bike list contains only singles and twins.

Coming from 4 and 6 cylinder bikes, the "proper" gear spread is a bit different than Buells, R type Beemers, or KTM690s.

My VFRs were really happy cruising at 6,500 rpm. I seriously doubt you'd want to do this on a 690Duke, or even an R1200GS. The V4 was designed as a higher rev engine. The gear drive cam versions did not like to be lugged down. So it was geared fairly low, but with a close ratio gearbox and a fairly tall 1st because a VFR wasn't designed to troll at 1200rpm idle speed down a rutted goat path.

My FJR1300 on the other hand is basically a torque monster for a 4 cylinder machine. It does have a tall 6th. Cruise an FJR at 6,000 rpm in 6th and you will probably get a large fine someday. But thankfully it is close ratio to the 5th in front of it, so a quick downshift if necessary is easy and hardly requires a clutch or a quick shifter.

As I believe Scott pointed out, wide ratio spreads anywhere along a gear box can be annoying.

So... it sort of all depends.....

 

[norcalkid]

My random thought really has nothing to do with bikes.

But I'm amazed how much of the country(and Canada) I have seen that I probably would have never seen had I not got back into riding. Bald Eagle flying over the road, baby bear crossing the road, The Avenue of Giants, Jasper NP in Canada, Lake Louise, Banff, Lassen NP, Glacier NP, Crater Lake, Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Monument Valley, Zion, etc, etc, etc I have seen so many amazing sites I probably would have never seen without my bike.

 

[CDONA]

You noticed I was mainly talking about the 6th gear not being tall enough, which has nothing to do with 1/4 mile times, and I mentioned the need to keep the first gear low (or lower). If your 6th is too tall until 70-75 (which sounds perfect to me), you could always stay in 5th, and grab another gear when needed at higher speed, so what's the problem?
.

My comment was to marketing, 1/4 mile times, and slick shifting with a close ratio, performance points for sales.
My "problem" was using 6th for me wasn't practical, on the street without wind protection. I needed to go bigger on the rear sprocket for dirt, with 6 speeds, perfect, but it was my street bike.
The other point, tuning made a practical difference, it never ran that good when I bought it.
As to auxiliary low ratio gears, never had a bike with, wish they all had one, surprised the new trail 125 doesn't have one.
I would like the first three gears to be close and a little low then bigger gaps for 4th then 5th, bigger jump to 6th

 

[GPzPop]

you can always change your sprocket ratios ...
oh, wait ...

 

[Gary856]

Saw this on ADV Rider posted in 2014; now I know at least one other person who shares my thought on this. :cool

"With the previous 1150 series, 4000 RPM in 6th gear would get you about 80 MPH. The subsequent 1200GS had the gearing shortened so that 4000 RPM would get you only 70 MPH.

Now, with the more powerful water-cooled engine, the gearing has been shortened even more so 4000 RPM will get you only about 65 MPH."


While riding my '08 R1200GS yesterday I verified that it'd maintain 51mph at 3000 rpm in 6th (not much pull there), 85 mph at 5000 rpm -> 17 mph per 1000 rpm in 6th. Gearing is decided by factory engineers way more knowledgable than me, so there must be good reasons. One reason may be top speed - the engine may not be able to pull a taller top gear for top speed. That may be a concern on the autobahn, but it isn't for the rest of the world for an ADV bike. With the factory screen I normally limit my speed to 85 mph 'cause I can't handle the wind roar faster than that (always wear ear plugs).