It caught me by surprise

DirtyD

Lives for MotoX
I really didn't see this one coming. Maybe I should have? I haven't been riding Thunderhill East much lately so maybe I was unaware that certain parts of the track have less grip than others. Maybe I just asked too much of the front tire. I definitely ran out of talent. The bike is "track only" now. A lot of damage considering that it stayed on it's side. Oh well. I walked away without a scratch.

Here's the Contour video. I had just passed a rider with a helmet cam. It would be fun to see that video too.

https://youtu.be/p7yq1pMuD2o
 

Frisco

Well-known member
Looks like you were off the racing line to make the pass. It’s probably dirty out there.

CJ
 

dtrides

Well-known member
There are some small bumps around there in 3 that caught my buddy out last year.
knock on wood I haven't had any issues (other than dragging my belly pan if I am too far out side).
What kind of shape were your tires in? Pressure? Hot off the warmers?
Maybe the right side cooled off too much as most of the track is lefts?
Glad you are ok!
DT
 
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Kalvin00

Well-known member
Ambient temp? What tires?

I notice you were on lap 2... and pretty much every right turn you were either going slowly, or stuck behind a slow bike. I don't know how hot it was, but.. cool right side of the tire?
 

295566

Numbers McGee
They mention that turn in every riders meeting, especially if ambient temps/track temps are lower, as a bike eater.

+1 on potentially cold tires, asking too much of the front tires given conditions.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
It's probably not a coincidence that the front tucked instantly when it ran over that patch.

Turn 3 gets a little more off camber the farther to the left you go, which is a contributor. It looks like the traction is probably different on the patch.

From the sound of it, you were off the gas but I can't tell whether you were on the brakes or not. Do you know?
 

clutchslip

Not as fast as I look.
I really didn't see this one coming. Maybe I should have? I haven't been riding Thunderhill East much lately so maybe I was unaware that certain parts of the track have less grip than others. Maybe I just asked too much of the front tire. I definitely ran out of talent. The bike is "track only" now. A lot of damage considering that it stayed on it's side. Oh well. I walked away without a scratch.

Here's the Contour video. I had just passed a rider with a helmet cam. It would be fun to see that video too.

https://youtu.be/p7yq1pMuD2o
The patch they use is like the patch at BumpyWillows and it is slippery. I am always surprised there aren't more crashes in 5 because there is patch at the top of that mini corkscrew. And if you feel it with your hand, you might be surprised how slick it is.

Next time take that outside line in three even farther outside and late apex. Aim for the outside of four and pick-up early. I learned this trick from Doug Chandler. It should get you past that patch, okay. The other problem is that you are riding a Honda instead of a Suzuki. WTF? :teeth
Classic Turn 3, I've only seen that crash about 100 times. Even done it myself.
Really? I have seen some rear slides there. Not too many front wash outs. HOWEVER, I have not been there much since the re-patch. You would know better.
 

kelsodeez

2wheels good 4wheels bad
I really really dislike that turn. Off camber right hander after some pretty nice flowing, fast turns. I hate tip-toeing through that turn, but you gotta.
 

afm199

Well-known member
Sorry you crashed, Dan. Using warmers? You were only 1.5 laps into that session.

As Andy and Wiles mentioned, that's a crash seen 100 times. The only thing I can add is that the outside is super slippery and you may not have had enough heat in your tire.

Glad you didn't tumble, a lot of bikes are yard saled in that crash.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
you are trailing too early and unloading the front tire. u can see the front end pop back up before and/or during turn in. the takes away grip and doesnt get the tire hot hot.

more tire heat might have prevented the crash, might not. same goes with a little more tire load at that point on the track. both def would not have hurt.
 

Biga

Near Miss Racing #96
Looks like you were off the racing line to make the pass. It’s probably dirty out there.

CJ

And also, someone else crashed at the same spot before you...
How old is the tire?
How was the temperature that day?
How many sessions have you done until the crash?
What was the tire PSI?
Have taken that line before so far out the race line?
crash.JPG
 

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
Bummer deal Dan...

My analyses (take it for what you will):

Your line into T3 is pretty wide and line through 3 on this lap is way low...almost to the bottom of the lower patch. That's no-man's land. Also, you're off the throttle way far into the corner which will exacerbate the bike not turning. You probably already know this, but T3 is a place you MUST be early to the throttle to run through the corner without giving up too much sped.

Here's a race's worth of my lines through T3...even passing guys, I don't go as low as where you were and if pushed that low, I'll roll out of it and stay away from that area. It's simply too hard to get the bike to turn out there, especially if off the throttle. T3 is my best corner at Thill.


youtu.be/RqfOWxRS1N4

Check this video at 7:04 for two different lines. Note the guy in no man's land...I had to sit here while they tried to run into one another. You were close to that line on entry and mid corner from what I can tell in your vid.


youtu.be/NPc1SGUd5tA

Hope to see ya out there soon Dan!
 
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Biga

Near Miss Racing #96
Bummer deal Dan...

My analyses (take it for what you will):

Your line into T3 is pretty wide and line through 3 on this lap is way low...almost to the bottom of the lower patch. That's no-man's land. Also, you're off the throttle way far into the corner which will exacerbate the bike not turning. You probably already know this, but T3 is a place you MUST be early to the throttle to run through the corner without giving up too much sped.

Here's a race's worth of my lines through T3...even passing guys, I don't go as low as where you were and if pushed that low, I'll roll out of it and stay away from that area. It's simply too hard to get the bike to turn out there, especially if off the throttle. T3 is my best corner at Thill.


youtu.be/RqfOWxRS1N4

Check this video at 7:04 for two different lines. Note the guy in no man's land...I had to sit here while they tried to run into one another. You were close to that line on entry and mid corner from what I can tell in your vid.


youtu.be/NPc1SGUd5tA

Hope to see ya out there soon Dan!

Damn that was a good ride!!! Did you won the race? I got lost when you begin to pass the slow pokers... :twofinger
Another thing I would like to point out is T1 and T2 are left turns and T2 is a really long left turn which could make the right side of the tire not as hot when you first dip in to the T3 which is a right turn...
 

jaybocc2

o lento
Damn that was a good ride!!! Did you won the race? I got lost when you begin to pass the slow pokers... :twofinger

Damn that hurts. Pretty sure thats the race I almost highsided and rode :ride a tankslapper all the way to 6 when i whacked the throttle open hearing berto pass me on the outside of 5. :rofl
 

DirtyD

Lives for MotoX
Thanks for all the feedback everyone. To answer a few questions:

It was a hot day, 4th session, tires hot off the warmers. And it was the second lap. I don't think the tire was too cold. Would I have still crashed taking that line on the 5th lap? Maybe. The bike was really hooked up all morning and I had dipped down into the 55's during the previous session. I was definitely feeling confident. 4th season on the CBR and it had only pushed the front tire a couple of times in 30 trackdays. I really expected my first crash on this bike to be from losing the rear.

My line was wide in an effort to throw down an outside pass. I've made plenty of outside passes in T3 before, but maybe before I had started inside and then drifted out to make the pass? I remember throwing the bike on it's side and just cracking the throttle in an effort to stay smooth and quick. I'm glad I had video because after the crash I couldn't remember exactly how wide I was. All that adrenaline has a way of wiping out your short term memory. My line was odd and not where I would normally want to be, but I really was caught by surprise. Crashed my Gixxer in almost exactly the same spot when I lost the rear and got high sided. That one was more of a cold tire deal. But it does go to show that I didn't respect that corner as much as I should. I do now.

The good news is that I had my 2019 YZ250 at the track the next weekend and was hitting an 80 foot jump that only a few riders could clear, so that cheered me up. I don't know how you "street only" guys do it. Motocross keeps me sane and in a good mood. And I can ride every weekend. At 7 different tracks. And if I crash it's not the end of my day, and the end of the motorcycle as I knew it. Crashing sucks. But crashing a street bike really sucks. That being said, I'll see you guys at the pre-AFM Sonoma Friday.
 

clutchslip

Not as fast as I look.
but maybe before I had started inside and then drifted out to make the pass?
This is what I saw. If you start far left, you change the angle of attack. It helps to angle differently than the shape of the curve. Most people don't do that and are slower. Holeshot seems able to pass on an outside line, too. The reason it works is because you change the angle on the off camber. You are heading more into the grade, rather than fighting the camber with the side of the tires. Safer and faster, imho, if you can swap to the left side for four. That takes some energy, though. All from a slow old guy, by the way. :teeth
 

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
Good post Scotland.

Dan, bad ass on the motocross...that's a young guy's sport! Getting beat up on the pavement is enough for me. I'm sticking to Standup Jetskiis for cross training. FWIW: 55's is flying at a trackday.
 
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