Intermediate riding training suggestions
- Thread starter Benea
- Start date
Surj
Uneasy Rider
The Alameda County Sheriff's Department civilian classes are good stuff.
bunnygoat
Well-known member
As Surj said, ALCO Sheriff's... I've done both the IRC and this. The IRC instructor actually said its labeled as "experienced" more as to not turn off returning riders who wouldn't like the "beginner" motif. Its just a reiteration of the basic training class whereas the ALCO Sheriff's goes way beyond simple drills.
Z²RoadRider
Let's Ride!
You may also want to check out our course which is built for newer to advanced riders, we have a very dynamic format.
Copy/pasting from another response I just posted in another thread: Check out our Z2 RoadRider 2.0 class, more info at https://z2trackdays.com/rr20/. Typically we teach at Sonoma Raceway, but if you're near San Jose, we're putting on an exclusive off-track class at Mission College in October (see link at the bottom of the webpage).
Let me know if you have any questions, email is <Antonio@z2trackdays.com>.
Copy/pasting from another response I just posted in another thread: Check out our Z2 RoadRider 2.0 class, more info at https://z2trackdays.com/rr20/. Typically we teach at Sonoma Raceway, but if you're near San Jose, we're putting on an exclusive off-track class at Mission College in October (see link at the bottom of the webpage).
Let me know if you have any questions, email is <Antonio@z2trackdays.com>.
Surj
Uneasy Rider
D'oh! I do like the cop bikes, but I totally forgot (I blame the pain meds) that we just recently checked out the Z2 Road Rider course. Kerri, who is also a CMSP instructor, dug it.
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
Not sure what course you are talking about but the IRC is not a reiteration of the basic class. Not at all.
The old MSF BRC2/ERC was just a review/refresher of the BRC as the BRC2/ERC taught no new skills.
The IRC teaches 5 new skills not taught in the basic class.
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
The IRC is taught in the south bay at Pacific Motorcycle Training and by Two Wheel Safety Training.
In the east bay, Northern California Motorcycle Training teaches the IRC in Walnut Creek at Diablo Valley College. I thin they also teach the IRC at their San Mateo College site as well, but check with their website.
There are also NCMT sites in Vallejo, Petaluma. Not sure about the IRC at Vallejo but I know they offer it at Petaluma.
I teach the IRC for PMT, occasionally for TWST and monthly for Valley Motorcycle Training in Atwater.
If you are having a problem finding an IRC, let me know and I will find one for you.
In the east bay, Northern California Motorcycle Training teaches the IRC in Walnut Creek at Diablo Valley College. I thin they also teach the IRC at their San Mateo College site as well, but check with their website.
There are also NCMT sites in Vallejo, Petaluma. Not sure about the IRC at Vallejo but I know they offer it at Petaluma.
I teach the IRC for PMT, occasionally for TWST and monthly for Valley Motorcycle Training in Atwater.
If you are having a problem finding an IRC, let me know and I will find one for you.
IRC w/ TWST in Newark
Hi new / returning riders,
As a returning rider I was looking for some training in these forums a month back, to feel comfortable on my motorcycle and confident to ride on streets.
I recently took the IRC course w/ TWST in Newark and wanted to share my feedback - hope it helps other new/ returning riders.
If I compare it to BRC I took in the same location a few years back (in spring), the BRC had too many riders (incl. a couple of over-enthusiastic riders and total noobs learning to balance on a motorized vehicle), a lead coach with loads of attitude ('do it my way or highway') who was quite stressed and barking at everyone. Overall the course covered basic drills but was not sufficient to prepare someone for street riding (and they do emphasize that). Although they had some intermediate drills (ex., swerving) it was touch and go. The only silver lining was the waiver of DMV test.
In contrast, the TC-IRC was led by 2 awesome coaches (withholding their names for privacy). They were super professional yet friendly. They brought tons of experience to the class with zero attitude. We also benefited from a smaller and more experienced class (6 students). Between two coaches / small class size, it was like personalized coaching (a luxury!).
The specific things that really helped me was precise / personalized feedback (for ex., to change old habits, correct errors, or to just achieve better results in a given exercise) - this resulted in immediate, measurable improvement within the few drills. As a result, I feel much more comfortable on my motorcycle after the class, and thus more confident with street riding - which incidentally was my original goal.
Overall it was a no-pressure / stress-free environment (they emphasized on 'take what works for you', and none of that 'my way or highway' crap). Although the drills are designed to push a (new/returning) rider, I had loads of fun practicing the basics and I am glad I took it. Thanks, M & M for excellent coaching (sorry I didn't get your barf handles).
I look forward to doing ARC with you guys sometime in the future.
Cheers, safe riding
AS.
Hi new / returning riders,
As a returning rider I was looking for some training in these forums a month back, to feel comfortable on my motorcycle and confident to ride on streets.
I recently took the IRC course w/ TWST in Newark and wanted to share my feedback - hope it helps other new/ returning riders.
If I compare it to BRC I took in the same location a few years back (in spring), the BRC had too many riders (incl. a couple of over-enthusiastic riders and total noobs learning to balance on a motorized vehicle), a lead coach with loads of attitude ('do it my way or highway') who was quite stressed and barking at everyone. Overall the course covered basic drills but was not sufficient to prepare someone for street riding (and they do emphasize that). Although they had some intermediate drills (ex., swerving) it was touch and go. The only silver lining was the waiver of DMV test.
In contrast, the TC-IRC was led by 2 awesome coaches (withholding their names for privacy). They were super professional yet friendly. They brought tons of experience to the class with zero attitude. We also benefited from a smaller and more experienced class (6 students). Between two coaches / small class size, it was like personalized coaching (a luxury!).
The specific things that really helped me was precise / personalized feedback (for ex., to change old habits, correct errors, or to just achieve better results in a given exercise) - this resulted in immediate, measurable improvement within the few drills. As a result, I feel much more comfortable on my motorcycle after the class, and thus more confident with street riding - which incidentally was my original goal.
Overall it was a no-pressure / stress-free environment (they emphasized on 'take what works for you', and none of that 'my way or highway' crap). Although the drills are designed to push a (new/returning) rider, I had loads of fun practicing the basics and I am glad I took it. Thanks, M & M for excellent coaching (sorry I didn't get your barf handles).
I look forward to doing ARC with you guys sometime in the future.
Cheers, safe riding
AS.
Probably not what you had in mind but you'll learn more here about bike control and traction that you can apply to any type of real world riding.
http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=531266
http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=531266
cal scott
Wookie
Not all IRC courses are created equal
I participated in a Total Control IRC last year and had a very different experience from as75 above. I guess this just goes to show that the outfit running the training is as important as the content itself.
My experience was as follows... Despite everyone arriving early, the class started late. The instructor thought it more important to call Lee Parks to discuss an issue one participant was having with his MC rather than focus on the class (the issue wasn't something that would have impacted his ability to participate). We then shuttled back and forth between the classroom and the field training area (parking lot) multiple times (at least 5x) over the course of the day eating up valuable time. I felt that the classroom topics were not that different from BRC - having taken a well run and executed BRC less than 12 mos. earlier. The field exercises did not give sufficient time for practice - we basically got two runs through each exercise before heading back to the classroom. Since the day was so chopped up we burned up valuable time warming up tires at the start of each of the field sessions. We finished almost a hour later than scheduled in the dark.
Did I learn anything, yes of course; but not compared to the amount of time devoted, At an intermediate level, my advise would be to save your money for a later time when you feel you are no longer learning on your own. For the types of skills taught in the IRC, I think you can get just as much (if not more) out of practicing an hour or two in a parking lot on your own or with friends. There are plenty of skill exercises that you can find demonstrated YouTube. Take some chalk and/or cones to set-up the course yourself.
I participated in a Total Control IRC last year and had a very different experience from as75 above. I guess this just goes to show that the outfit running the training is as important as the content itself.
My experience was as follows... Despite everyone arriving early, the class started late. The instructor thought it more important to call Lee Parks to discuss an issue one participant was having with his MC rather than focus on the class (the issue wasn't something that would have impacted his ability to participate). We then shuttled back and forth between the classroom and the field training area (parking lot) multiple times (at least 5x) over the course of the day eating up valuable time. I felt that the classroom topics were not that different from BRC - having taken a well run and executed BRC less than 12 mos. earlier. The field exercises did not give sufficient time for practice - we basically got two runs through each exercise before heading back to the classroom. Since the day was so chopped up we burned up valuable time warming up tires at the start of each of the field sessions. We finished almost a hour later than scheduled in the dark.
Did I learn anything, yes of course; but not compared to the amount of time devoted, At an intermediate level, my advise would be to save your money for a later time when you feel you are no longer learning on your own. For the types of skills taught in the IRC, I think you can get just as much (if not more) out of practicing an hour or two in a parking lot on your own or with friends. There are plenty of skill exercises that you can find demonstrated YouTube. Take some chalk and/or cones to set-up the course yourself.
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motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
Cal Scott,
Sorry you did not have as positive of an experience as you could/should have.
We don't know what was going on with the other student's bike so it was probably a significant safety concern to confirm it was OK to proceed.
Going back and forth to class is how the course is set up. If the classroom is very far from the range, this is very much less than ideal as it eats up too much time, as you experienced. Some sites are much better than other for that reason and others.
You mentioned you only had about 2 iterations of each exercise. Something must have gone awry as the IRC is supposed to have 3-4 iterations, minimum, in each direction, where applicable, for each student. So the students should have had 6 or more iterations. My students usually get about 10 iterations in total.
That said, even 10 iterations are not enough to "set" a new skill.
I always explain this to my students and ask that they incorporate these new skills in their daily riding, or they will lose these new skills.
You mention you "think you can get just as much (if not more) out of practicing an hour or two in a parking lot on your own or with friends."
There is something to be said for this but there are also a lot of pitfalls.
The issues of learning by yourself or with others that are not trained to instruct include:
You or your friend may not understand the building blocks of a given skill and skip important building block steps.
It is very difficult to objectively observe yourself or a friend, especially if you are not trained to know what to look for.
The untrained observer may not recognize what you are doing incorrectly.
Most riders do seem to know how to fix what they are doing incorrectly.
Often, their fix may be even worse, increase risk, etc. We see it all the time in threads on BARF.
There are other issues as well but those are the big ones.
A trained instructor can help you with all those points.
Learning in a formal class with a trained instructor allows you to learn from other peoples' mistakes. The instructor knows what to look for in correct and incorrect technique. The instructor also knows how instruct you in proper steps to get you safely through the steps to achieve that goal. The instructor knows these things because the instructor has been trained to observe and how to instruct in those steps in what is known to actually work.
I can't fix what you experienced.
I can offer to you that I often have empty slots in my Atwater IRC and if you are interested, I would run you through the IRC again, in one of those empty slots. I think you would have a lot more positive experience.
Sorry you did not have as positive of an experience as you could/should have.
We don't know what was going on with the other student's bike so it was probably a significant safety concern to confirm it was OK to proceed.
Going back and forth to class is how the course is set up. If the classroom is very far from the range, this is very much less than ideal as it eats up too much time, as you experienced. Some sites are much better than other for that reason and others.
You mentioned you only had about 2 iterations of each exercise. Something must have gone awry as the IRC is supposed to have 3-4 iterations, minimum, in each direction, where applicable, for each student. So the students should have had 6 or more iterations. My students usually get about 10 iterations in total.
That said, even 10 iterations are not enough to "set" a new skill.
I always explain this to my students and ask that they incorporate these new skills in their daily riding, or they will lose these new skills.
You mention you "think you can get just as much (if not more) out of practicing an hour or two in a parking lot on your own or with friends."
There is something to be said for this but there are also a lot of pitfalls.
The issues of learning by yourself or with others that are not trained to instruct include:
You or your friend may not understand the building blocks of a given skill and skip important building block steps.
It is very difficult to objectively observe yourself or a friend, especially if you are not trained to know what to look for.
The untrained observer may not recognize what you are doing incorrectly.
Most riders do seem to know how to fix what they are doing incorrectly.
Often, their fix may be even worse, increase risk, etc. We see it all the time in threads on BARF.
There are other issues as well but those are the big ones.
A trained instructor can help you with all those points.
Learning in a formal class with a trained instructor allows you to learn from other peoples' mistakes. The instructor knows what to look for in correct and incorrect technique. The instructor also knows how instruct you in proper steps to get you safely through the steps to achieve that goal. The instructor knows these things because the instructor has been trained to observe and how to instruct in those steps in what is known to actually work.
I can't fix what you experienced.
I can offer to you that I often have empty slots in my Atwater IRC and if you are interested, I would run you through the IRC again, in one of those empty slots. I think you would have a lot more positive experience.
cal scott
Wookie
Motomania, you bring up excellent points on the benefits that one should get out of these courses and they all have merit. To add an overlooked benefit to the organized course is simply making that commitment to the learning curve - it is too easy to make excuses not to get into a parking lot and practice (myself included here). Just as importantly, its a good reminder to us all that taking the course is not the end - it is the start and those skills need to be continuously refreshed. So many of us stay in our comfort zone :ride on a daily basis only to find we are unprepared when events outside of our control push us out.
Whatever decision the OP makes based on what's right for him/her, the important aspect is that they are taking control of their training and pushing their limits in a controlled and managed environment.
That is a extremely generous offer that I wouldn't feel comfortable taking advantage of - I am certainly not so disillusioned with riding courses in general (again, can't say enough good things about my BRC) that I wouldn't jump in the ring again and I would certainly expect to pay my fair share.
I had been eyeing up an ARC or equivalent as the next step here. I would be interested in your feedback on the progression and when you would encourage a student to move to an ARC versus the IRC (assuming that you have students that you recommend the IRC to multiple times). Perhaps put differently, what skills need to be solid before you would recommend the ARC? Cheers :thumbup
Whatever decision the OP makes based on what's right for him/her, the important aspect is that they are taking control of their training and pushing their limits in a controlled and managed environment.
That is a extremely generous offer that I wouldn't feel comfortable taking advantage of - I am certainly not so disillusioned with riding courses in general (again, can't say enough good things about my BRC) that I wouldn't jump in the ring again and I would certainly expect to pay my fair share.
I had been eyeing up an ARC or equivalent as the next step here. I would be interested in your feedback on the progression and when you would encourage a student to move to an ARC versus the IRC (assuming that you have students that you recommend the IRC to multiple times). Perhaps put differently, what skills need to be solid before you would recommend the ARC? Cheers :thumbup
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
Cal Scott,
The ARC is a great course. I am certified to teach it as well. The ARC focuses more of the rider and bike interface. How the rider sits on the bike and controls the bike. You might be surprised at how very little changes provide huge differences in control.
One big thing I found is weighting the footpegs, just a little, tends to push your knees into the tank, thereby connecting you to the bike a little better, AND activating core muscles in the back and abdomen that then support your bodyweight, instead of hanging on (cruiser) and leaning on (sport bike) your hands.
Removing the weight from your hands gives you much better, finer feel and control of steering, clutch, throttle and brakes...
The ARC teaches this point individually to each student, on their bike.
The ARC then proceeds to run you through exercises to show you how these changes have improved your bike control.
One next step for you is definitely the ARC.
The ARC is a great course. I am certified to teach it as well. The ARC focuses more of the rider and bike interface. How the rider sits on the bike and controls the bike. You might be surprised at how very little changes provide huge differences in control.
One big thing I found is weighting the footpegs, just a little, tends to push your knees into the tank, thereby connecting you to the bike a little better, AND activating core muscles in the back and abdomen that then support your bodyweight, instead of hanging on (cruiser) and leaning on (sport bike) your hands.
Removing the weight from your hands gives you much better, finer feel and control of steering, clutch, throttle and brakes...
The ARC teaches this point individually to each student, on their bike.
The ARC then proceeds to run you through exercises to show you how these changes have improved your bike control.
One next step for you is definitely the ARC.