How dangerous is Highway 17 to a very new rider?

berth

Well-known member
There's got to be folks here who remember the nickname for sections of Hwy 17 was blood alley.

That was before they put in the center dividers.
lots of head on collisions before then.

See, based on the descriptions folks are sharing with this road, no-one should ride it, much less a novice. Apparently riding this road throws the rider in to the arms of fate, since you never know when you'll be coming around a corner and see a pair of semi trucks drag racing across the center line, or something.

From the satellite, Angeles Crest looks worse than this road. Ortega Highway looks worse than this road. Back side of Palomar looks worse than this road. Highway 33 looks worse than this road.

And those are all fine roads, and none of those are 4 lane roads.

But, I'm not on the ground. I don't ride this road. I don't know the environment. As a road, it looks fine, and better than most of the stuff I used to ride.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
See, based on the descriptions folks are sharing with this road, no-one should ride it, much less a novice. Apparently riding this road throws the rider in to the arms of fate, since you never know when you'll be coming around a corner and see a pair of semi trucks drag racing across the center line, or something.

From the satellite, Angeles Crest looks worse than this road. Ortega Highway looks worse than this road. Back side of Palomar looks worse than this road. Highway 33 looks worse than this road.

And those are all fine roads, and none of those are 4 lane roads.

But, I'm not on the ground. I don't ride this road. I don't know the environment. As a road, it looks fine, and better than most of the stuff I used to ride.
Different thangs. Ortega is the deadliest motorcycle road in California, Angeles Crest isn't far behind. That's not because the roads are dangerous, but because motorcyclists go there to ride fast.

17 is a commute route, with freeway speeds and density but without the space to build a proper freeway.

From 2014 to 2018 (latest data I have from CHP), on 17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz...

  • there were 120 reported motorcycle crashes
  • 60% were multiple vehicle
  • half of the MV were the other driver's fault, usually a cut-off
  • of the MV crashes that were the rider's fault, nearly half were rear-enders,
  • most of the rest of the MV resulted from motorcycle loss of control
  • in half of the single-vehicle crashes--20% of the total--the motorcycle overturned while going straight (crash under braking?)

OP: Any update?
 

motomania2007

TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
I would not recommend taking highway 17 to Santa Cruz as a new rider. All the reasons have clearly been stated above multiple times.

I suggest that you find a large parking lot and practice SPAT As you were taught in class. I used to live near the Santa Teresa and VTA station and that lot works very well for this using one of the islands that separates the two rows of parking as the center of an oval and then ride ovals practicing spat.

My suggestion for road practice is to practice on the road in the time you have and practice getting on the freeways during low traffic periods so you used to riding at freeway speeds.

I also suggest taking rides like Uvas road south of San Jose toward Gilroy. And when you're riding Uvas, keep your speeds moderate and your eyes well ahead of you out 15 seconds or more. If you can't see 15 seconds ahead slow down.

This will give you more experience looking ahead through turns along the road with relatively mild traffic unless you try to do this during commute hours.
 

berth

Well-known member
Different thangs. Ortega is the deadliest motorcycle road in California, Angeles Crest isn't far behind. That's not because the roads are dangerous, but because motorcyclists go there to ride fast.
Right.

"Rider: Doc, I die when I ride too fast on Ortega." "Doctor: Don't do that."

Make no mistake, if any of these roads are dangerous for their own sake, OH is at the top of the list with its narrow shoulders, and tight, blind curves.

17 is a commute route, with freeway speeds and density but without the space to build a proper freeway.

From 2014 to 2018 (latest data I have from CHP), on 17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz...

  • there were 120 reported motorcycle crashes
  • 60% were multiple vehicle
  • half of the MV were the other driver's fault, usually a cut-off
  • of the MV crashes that were the rider's fault, nearly half were rear-enders, (i.e. riding too fast)
  • most of the rest of the MV resulted from motorcycle loss of control (i.e. perhaps riding too fast, could also be a road condition issue)
  • in half of the single-vehicle crashes--20% of the total--the motorcycle overturned while going straight (crash under braking?) (i.e. probably riding too fast)

(italics mine)

I appreciate that riders speed, and how "going fast" is a key component to riding for some. But if there's anything in the gross dynamic that's within the riders control, "going fast (or not)" is at the top of the list.

Are the speed limits too high for this road? Is it simply artificially dangerous due to poor engineering, enforcement, and signage? Does it have a lot of blind intersections and dangerous cross traffic? Nefarious road conditions?

What makes AC and OH dangerous is not the road (modulo some rocks in the corners), it's the riders themselves. And MOST of the time, they only hurt themselves (there's always exceptions). But those are 2 lane undivided roads where someone crossing the double yellow is a real possibility and can affect others. That does not seem to be an issue with 17 as far as I can tell.

Can you be in the slow lane and some yahoo in the fast lane overheats a corner and goes bowling for others? Sure, I guess, but that's not a hazard to a novice rider -- that's hazard to anyone. Novice or expert. If that threat is bad enough for a novice, it's bad enough for others as well. Maybe the experts expect to be leading traffic the entire time (and "good enough" to not go bowling themselves) so they're under less threat of being hit from behind. That's almost reasonable, incurring the risk of riding faster over the risk of being struck from behind by someone else who's chosen the risk of riding faster. Twisted logic there, to be sure, but there's a glimmer.

Out here in the IE, I do 70 on the freeway and I'm like a rock in the river sometimes. Aggressive driving all around me. And that's just on 4-5 lanes of interstate. Cars feel entitled to just roar down this stretch of road, in and out and around other cars. 75 is often not fast enough. I've seen my share of cars doing just that and rushing in to density, only to not, quite, make it. Dangerous to everyone.

Finally, 120 crashes over 4 years, 50% another vehicles fault. So, in theory, 60 are in direct control of the rider. 15 per year. 1 every 24 days. How many vehicles travel this road every day? How much better are the other roads?

I don't want anyone to get hurt, naturally. I don't want to pressure someone to do something they're not comfortable with, of course. Heck, I don't recommend motorcycle riding to anyone. But it seems to me that this road is mostly unsafe to folks making it unsafe, and mostly to themselves, and much of the control appears to be in the hands of the rider.
 

Smash Allen

Banned
[...]
I don't want anyone to get hurt, naturally. I don't want to pressure someone to do something they're not comfortable with, of course. Heck, I don't recommend motorcycle riding to anyone. But it seems to me that this road is mostly unsafe to folks making it unsafe, and mostly to themselves, and much of the control appears to be in the hands of the rider.

You can say that about motorcycles in general regardless of the road :thumbup
 

Mellowtonin

Old Enough to Know Better
I passed my basic skills course and got a bike right before the lockdown hit, then my dad died, and I ended up with a huge gap in riding. I'm back on the road now after some one on one training at the safety school, but I'm overall just pretty inexperienced. I have to go to Santa Cruz in three weeks, and I live in San Jose. I'm wondering if it would be stupid to take my bike. The bike is a Kawisaki Vulcan S 650 with ABS. The thing is, I've never owned a car, so I've never driven on Highway 17. So, I don't know that road. My mom says it can be pretty twisty, but I don't know to what degree, and my mom isn't a biker and hasn't driven that road in over a decade. Meaning I have no idea how difficult and dangerous a ride we're talking about, here. Thus, I submit this to you experienced local riders who know that road. I can take the bus to Santa Cruz if I need to, so be honest about whether this is something a new rider should be attempting. While I'd love to take the bike and get some riding experience in, I also don't want to do something way above my skill level and wipe out in a corner.

Ah, to be young and inexperienced in the great hobby and sport of motorcycle riding! Don't let the naysayers get to you, Highway 17 is a great, wide stretch of scenic cruising on your Vulcan S. When I had my own cruiser 4 years ago, I used to hit up HWY 17 rain or shine just to relax.


youtu.be//C1cktQHRvkI

Sounds like you're not comfortable tackling this all by yourself just quite yet. If you can somehow schedule your trip on a weekend (morning is best to avoid traffic and having to lane split) - for a bag of my favorite coffee beans, I can meet you at Alum Rock to lead the ride. It would be a lot easier if you are following someone, we'll take it real easy and you should be there in no time...it will be fun times ~ I guarantee it.
 

Maddevill

KNGKAW
If you want my opinion, no road is ever dangerous for a very cautious driver/rider. Unless of course you are hit by another doofus on the road, then at least, it's not your fault.

I tend to disagree. I feel being too cautious on a bike is a great way to end up in an accident. We are already vulnerable, going extra slow puts us in even more danger. A bit of aggression, at least in attitude, is safer. Just my opinion.

Mad
 

auntiebling

megalomaniacal troglodyte
Staff member
Another alternative would be Soquel San Jose Rd and add a few miles to your trip.

this is my suggestion as well. or go even farther south and take hecker pass into watsonville. technically soquel san jose and hecker pass are more difficult roads, but with far less traffic on them.

the volume of traffic, and the type of driver likely to be in those cars, is the real danger of 17

See, based on the descriptions folks are sharing with this road, no-one should ride it, much less a novice. Apparently riding this road throws the rider in to the arms of fate, since you never know when you'll be coming around a corner and see a pair of semi trucks drag racing across the center line, or something.

From the satellite, Angeles Crest looks worse than this road. Ortega Highway looks worse than this road. Back side of Palomar looks worse than this road. Highway 33 looks worse than this road.

And those are all fine roads, and none of those are 4 lane roads.

But, I'm not on the ground. I don't ride this road. I don't know the environment. As a road, it looks fine, and better than most of the stuff I used to ride.

i've driven angles crest, ridden 33 from ojai all the way into the hot armpit it turns into and back, but not ortega or palomar.

on a map, i agree 33 or angles crest are more challenging roads than 17. neither of them has the volume of traffic 17 has which as i stated above is the real danger. on a light traffic day, 17 is somewhat enjoyable. it has fast sweepers and large elevation changes and the pavement is decent.

i am not a regular on 17 but i have been on it at all times of day over the years and you really never know when you'll be doing 60mph one second only to be greeted around the next curve by stopped cars. any time of day, any day of the week. weekends can be especially bad. 17 is the primary artery from the greater silicon valley to the coast. when the weather warms, the san jose area decides they want to go to the beach for the day so a few hundred thousand people try to leave early to beat the traffic all at the same time, and fail miserably resulting in a miles long traffic jam inching over the hll.

There's got to be folks here who remember the nickname for sections of Hwy 17 was blood alley.

That was before they put in the center dividers.
lots of head on collisions before then.

the dividers reduced head-on but i wonder if they made same-direction crashes worse.... at least they keep the mess on one side. i get an inescapable claustrophobic feeling on some of the southbound stretches where there is the center divide on my left, and the mountain on the right with cars all around doing 50+mph. reminds me of a nascar race, if the racetrack was a pipe.
 

PaleHorse

Well-known member
I have to disagree with what is being said about old san jose. That has become a major commute route for teh locals and it is more of a speedway than 17. You really want to piss people off, take that road 10 miles an hour under the speed limit like the rest of the weekend warriors. I liive on that side of the hill and work in San Jose and use OSJ daily. If I'm not on 2 wheels I'm in a company vehicle and driving the speed limit. I end up pulling over to let the rest of the local cagers pass multiple times on every drive home.

17 has gotten even better in the last few months with all of the re-paving they have done but same thing, there's a large group of locals that drive that road like complete assholes both during commute and non commute hours. Early weekend mornings there is less traffic but always a chance the road will be wet until the fog burns off. Especially towards the summit.

My only advice. Stay in the slow lane and go with the flow of traffic. Watch out for big rigs or slower vehicles in the fast lane. People do crazy shit to get around them and will pass in the slow lane and cut back over at the last minute making everyone else lock up their brakes.
 

kuksul08

Suh Dude
I would not recommend any of these other roads - Soquel/San Jose, Hwy 9, Bear Creek, etc. You need to really be on your toes on those roads because of people crossing the center line, cyclists, garbage cans, pedestrians, they are just as narrow, and more potential for debris in the roadway. Sure, the speeds are slightly slower, but there are so many other variables.

With regards to accidents on 17, the one thing to watch out for is suddenly stopped traffic. If riding too fast or not looking far enough ahead, you come around a corner and can rear-end a vehicle. But that can happen on any road with blind corners.
 
Hwy 17 is my daily commute and I've ridden it 4,000+ roundtrips. In that time I've cut people out of their seatbelts after a vehicle crossed into on coming traffic, been 5 seconds behind a fatality that closed the road at Cats (I U-turned and took 9 home), been 12 cars behind a deadly semi crash that closed 17 for 10 hours at Bear Creek (no getting out that one) and had my bike totaled by a driver who lane changed over the top of me. I love 17 and think it's a great ride -- but I'm guessing you need more saddle time.
If you decide not to wait, avoid the commute times (even now) and southbound consider exiting at Summit and take that to Old Soquel. The agro increases on the Santa Cruz side of SB 17. The return doesn't much matter. Good luck.
 

kuksul08

Suh Dude
Hwy 17 is my daily commute and I've ridden it 4,000+ roundtrips. In that time I've cut people out of their seatbelts after a vehicle crossed into on coming traffic, been 5 seconds behind a fatality that closed the road at Cats (I U-turned and took 9 home), been 12 cars behind a deadly semi crash that closed 17 for 10 hours at Bear Creek (no getting out that one) and had my bike totaled by a driver who lane changed over the top of me. I love 17 and think it's a great ride -- but I'm guessing you need more saddle time.
If you decide not to wait, avoid the commute times (even now) and southbound consider exiting at Summit and take that to Old Soquel. The agro increases on the Santa Cruz side of SB 17. The return doesn't much matter. Good luck.

I remember the semi truck accident. That was gnarly, arguably the worst in the history of that road.
 
I remember the semi truck accident. That was gnarly, arguably the worst in the history of that road.

Yes, it was incredible. I was close enough behind it that I could see the cars flying into the air and the semi as it jumped the barrier. Didn't register at first what I was seeing. But had plenty of time to consider my morning routine and wonder whether that last sip of coffee before leaving home may have been the difference between being behind or in front of that nightmare.
 

ExtrF4i

Well-known member
Just throwing in my $0.02. OP....17 is not the place to "learn" on. I grew up in Los Gatos and spent many a day going to the beach in High School (30'ish years ago) and more trips than I can count since then. I've traveled it by car and on the bike. I now live on the other side of the hill in Santa Cruz and drive the other way regularly.

As others have said there have been many safety improvements over the years, however, some things never change: bad drivers, scared drivers, lots of semi-trucks and tanker trucks that cause cagers to drive unpredictably, and plenty of the 2-wheeled variety that use 17 as a race track and will share / split lanes even when traffic is rolling along at 50 - 65mph. The road itself throws a lot at you as well -- particularly as one that does not drive and has just barely begun to ride his moto. There are a lot of decreasing radius turns, off camber turns, off camber turns that also have decreasing radius, turns that suddenly have pitch changes and upset suspension, etc. Also, the pavement surface on the Los Gatos side from just above Lexington Reservoir to Los Gatos is crap -- tar snakes everywhere, pot holes everywhere, large gouges that want to suck your tire in,etc. The rest of the road has been paved and is in great shape though.

One other thing about 17 at late is with the decreased volume of traffic speeds have gone up significantly. I also see a lot more driver aggression than I have ever seen before -- probably because everyone is frustrated with Covid. I just had some A-hole tailgating me super hard despite the fact that there was no place for me to go due to traffic in front of me. He kept trying to aggressively pass me but kept getting himself blocked by traffic in both lanes. Now he was just pissed, flashing his lights, flipping me off, driving inches off my bumper, etc. Imagine all that as a newbie rider. Needless to say, I got out of his was just as quickly as I could only to watch him do it again to the car that was in front of me.

This web site can help you understand where the accidents occur: http://www.cyclelicio.us/chp/2019/sr17crashes.php?fbclid=IwAR37ZIRaOItqonu-eg62_ALKPpO6NZq2akzLNl6SUfqRRBmf-NROIJxFPrI . The worst places by far are in the Northbound lanes just as you pass Summit Road and two additional turns just past it (dubbed Valley Surprise for a reason). Cars go into the turns way too hot, freak out, hit the brakes, hit the wall, then bounce like a pinball off the walls until their little sheet metal ball of a car stops and blocks one of both of the lanes for hours till the tow truck can clean up the mess.

I kid you not, before the "Covid-Lite" commute you could count on several accidents per day during the summer then up to a dozen or more during the rainy season.

Hwy 9 is not much better for a newbie but for different reasons. It does tend to be a much more chill drive than 17 but it is longer and much more twisty.
 
Well, I've decided to back off. We're in a heat wave and it's supposed to be in the mid-90s, and I'm sensitive to heat. I'm also going down there to do physically strenuous activity, so I'm going to be hot and exhausted by the time I'm making my way back to San Jose. All things considered, better to just take the bus.
 

CABilly

Splitter
Good call.

It sounds like you have very little to possibly no experience on highways or in traffic. Everyone's mentioned all the stuff I was going to about crazy inattentive aggressive drivers and so forth.

I don't know how much riding practice you've done, but baby steps aren't a bad idea. Someone mentioned Uvas road and I'll second it. It's a nice forgiving stretch without traffic and it's got some turns to get you used to riding a curvy road. Heck, my first winding road was Quito between Saratoga and Los Gatos. It's residential so not a place to try to go as fast as you can, just a good nearby spot to practice on a not straight road. It also has some funny speed limits if I recall correctly.

All the other routes like 9, Old San Jose etc might be putting yourself in over your head. There's a lot going on and if you've barely passed MSF and then taken months off of riding, there are mechanical skills you'd probably want to tighten up before attempting those roads. For instance, taking a turn while going downhill feels a lot different than on flat ground. Add in a potentially off-camber situation and it can really throw you off. Take your time and enjoy the learning process.
 

bosco12

Well-known member
And This Afternoon ...

Incident: 08/28/20 03:15 PM : Santa Cruz : SR17 N / Carl Dr :
Time Detail
Aug 28 2020 3:16PM PER ANOTHER IN THE SLOW LN
Aug 28 2020 3:16PM VEH WAS WEAVING AND HIT A SEMI AND WENT UNDER
Aug 28 2020 3:17PM 1039 EQUIP
Aug 28 2020 3:18PM PER AOTHER BIG RIG VS MC DOWN IN THE SLOW LN
Aug 28 2020 3:19PM 17 97 SB JNO SUGARLOAF BOTH LNS CLOSED
Aug 28 2020 3:20PM 17A A UNIT NEEDS TO SHUT DOWN NB LNS F/EQUIP TO ACCESS
Aug 28 2020 3:22PM A26-017A HAVE FIRE AND AMR RESPOND NB ON SB LNS USE SUGURLOAF EXIT
 

onto1wheel

Riding All The Time
hmmm that doesn't seem like a proper way to assess if a road is "safe".
I think if we start listing every road that has had a motorcycle accident, there will be no "safe" roads left to ride.


well, maybe some folks have already assessed that there are no "safe" motorcycle roads....

(PS i've commuted over 17 year-round on a motorcycle for many years. Personally I feel safer there than on the super-slabs of silicon valley)

Incident: 08/28/20 03:15 PM : Santa Cruz : SR17 N / Carl Dr :
Time Detail
Aug 28 2020 3:16PM PER ANOTHER IN THE SLOW LN
Aug 28 2020 3:16PM VEH WAS WEAVING AND HIT A SEMI AND WENT UNDER
Aug 28 2020 3:17PM 1039 EQUIP
Aug 28 2020 3:18PM PER AOTHER BIG RIG VS MC DOWN IN THE SLOW LN
Aug 28 2020 3:19PM 17 97 SB JNO SUGARLOAF BOTH LNS CLOSED
Aug 28 2020 3:20PM 17A A UNIT NEEDS TO SHUT DOWN NB LNS F/EQUIP TO ACCESS
Aug 28 2020 3:22PM A26-017A HAVE FIRE AND AMR RESPOND NB ON SB LNS USE SUGURLOAF EXIT
 
Incident: 08/28/20 03:15 PM : Santa Cruz : SR17 N / Carl Dr :
Time Detail
Aug 28 2020 3:16PM PER ANOTHER IN THE SLOW LN
Aug 28 2020 3:16PM VEH WAS WEAVING AND HIT A SEMI AND WENT UNDER
Aug 28 2020 3:17PM 1039 EQUIP
Aug 28 2020 3:18PM PER AOTHER BIG RIG VS MC DOWN IN THE SLOW LN
Aug 28 2020 3:19PM 17 97 SB JNO SUGARLOAF BOTH LNS CLOSED
Aug 28 2020 3:20PM 17A A UNIT NEEDS TO SHUT DOWN NB LNS F/EQUIP TO ACCESS
Aug 28 2020 3:22PM A26-017A HAVE FIRE AND AMR RESPOND NB ON SB LNS USE SUGURLOAF EXIT
Not me. I crashed this morning in Willow Glen, broke my arm :laughing
 
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