Cripple Triple

ACA

Well-known member
Is anyone doing this, or does anyone plan to race their 450 in a 600 class? Is it legal in 600 Prod? is it competitive in 600 Superbike?

Corey, I'm planning on doing this again this year, though my scraped together mystery motor is way down on power. I did it last year for the first 3 rounds till I had mechanical issues (not related to crippling). I think the bike could be competitive with a more capable rider. In 450 mode, it makes comparable power to other crippling methods, but not as much as a built vfr or rvf 400. In 600 mode, its just another R6.
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
I don't speak officially for tech, this is just my opinion on the topic.

I get why the switch solution is appealing to racers and how it benefits AFM by more entries. And yes, a cheater may be obvious to those out on the track and maybe a few keen observers, but put yourself in the shoes of tech that now has to make a judgement call based on subjective data (how much cooler should the dead cylinder be on a 108* Thunderhill afternoon for instance?).

Yeah yeah we're all out there for fun but you might be surprised how much passion and emotion makes its way to tech when a plastic trophy is on the line. With the switch solution the burden is on tech to make an judgement call that may undermine the integrity of the class championship and result in a 43 page thread on BARF about how shitty AFM is. To me indisputable verification is at the heart of the matter. Whether or not someone would go to the effort of an elaborate (or it may be simple) cheater system is mostly irrelevant, because its plausible and we would have to deal with it.

Additionally, tech largely relies on fellow racers to bring rule breakers to our attention, which is why you see us at track exit from time to time easily checking for specific items and occasionally staying late to tear down a motor.

It is appealing to every club that is interested in the 450s. This concept goes beyond just the AFM.

Even if the AFM never allowed a switch, we are still going to need to deal with them as other clubs have already allowed them and we have reciprocity with those clubs.

So lets get ahead of it.

The burden on Tech is not any harder than it is today when you think about it on the track vs the bench racing we are doing right now :)

I have spoken with a number of 450 racers and they have all volunteered to help policy this until Tech is comfortable. They will help at every round to inspect 450s and walk Tech through how everything fits together. We can cover all 7 rounds.

The process will be simple:

* If the bike is on track in a 450 race and is running as a 600 EVERYONE will know. Again, it is NOT subtle in any way, shape or form.

* If the switch is accessible from the racing position it is an immediate DQ; no exceptions.

* If the switch is inaccessible from the racing position it is legal.

The reality is, no one is going to be able to reach under their seat/tail and flip a switch in the heat of a race and then switch it back before anyone notices.

The only place it is going to be an advantage is on the straights. Imagine flipping a switch under your tail while racing from T13 to T14 at Thunderhill. I would really enjoy watching someone try that.

IMHO the AFM needs to start preparing for the switch to be officially allowed by Tech and Tech should start training for it this year. If Tech knows what to look for (like learning to look for other "funny" things on other race bikes) this is going to be a non-issue.

Every person who actually races a 450 in the AFM is in support of this. Lets support them.

To kick this off. I am happy to meet with everyone in Tech at Buttonwillow. I will set up two identical R6s (mine). One of them will be a 450. I will let you decide if you can tell the difference.
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
Is anyone doing this, or does anyone plan to race their 450 in a 600 class? Is it legal in 600 Prod? is it competitive in 600 Superbike?

It can be competitive, depends on the rider :)

A 450SB switched back is a 600SB. The only issue that people are running into is gearing. You either find a medium you can live with or one class will suffer. No time to switch sprockets between races :)
 

jbawden

Well-known member
Let me be clear that I think the class is awesome on many levels and I'm certain AFM 100% supports what you guys are doing. This isn't at all about discouraging the class, just by having this discussion I hope you can see we are in fact trying to get ahead of the curve so that the class can thrive. I don't know of a practical solution or if there even needs to be anything beyond a switch for everyone to compete fairly, but this is new ground and worthy of debate.
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
Let me be clear that I think the class is awesome on many levels and I'm certain AFM 100% supports what you guys are doing. This isn't at all about discouraging the class, just by having this discussion I hope you can see we are in fact trying to get ahead of the curve so that the class can thrive. I don't know of a practical solution or if there even needs to be anything beyond a switch for everyone to compete fairly, but this is new ground and worthy of debate.

Absolutely!

If there are any holes in our logic a debate will find them.

I would much rather discuss the topic 1,000 times instead of coming up with some "proactive" rules that inhibit the exploration of this class.

The entire concept of the triple is exploding. I have heard chatter about it across the entire country. It isn't even local to the west coast anymore.
 

ircsmith

Well-known member
so if I wrap my fourth header in a rheostat controlled peltier cooler I can run a 600 in the 450 class! cool. oh and cool....
 

stangmx13

not Stan
racer cripples a 600 to have fun racing, save tons of tire $$, and get out of a meat grinder class. racer then spends a shit ton of time and $$ to cheat in cripple class to win plastic trophy.

:laughing nope, i just dont see it happening. def not enough to rly worry about it.
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
racer cripples a 600 to have fun racing, save tons of tire $$, and get out of a meat grinder class. racer then spends a shit ton of time and $$ to cheat in cripple class to win plastic trophy.

:laughing nope, i just dont see it happening. def not enough to rly worry about it.

While I agree with you, you would be surprised the amount of money that has been spent on a few 450s in the last couple of years...
 

ChampR1

Well-known member
Just learned about this whole movement. Seems like a huge positive to club racing... here's a few ideas that I think (IMHO):

A switch could easily be mandated an Aircraft style safety switch located behind the riders seating position. It could be safety wired or zip tied closed, with a quick post race inspection at track exit. Maybe taped too (break seal, warranty void).
(Only riders running dual classes need inspection as 450 only should have the switch sealed all weekend)

Also seems a switched bike would be a slight disadvantage compared to a dedicated Cripple Triple, as you would always have a dead compression cycle.

Lower powered bikes definitely promote better riding and this idea seems like an exciting avenue that has me thinking for a AFM return.... ��
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
Just learned about this whole movement. Seems like a huge positive to club racing... here's a few ideas that I think (IMHO):

A switch could easily be mandated an Aircraft style safety switch located behind the riders seating position. It could be safety wired or zip tied closed, with a quick post race inspection at track exit. Maybe taped too (break seal, warranty void).
(Only riders running dual classes need inspection as 450 only should have the switch sealed all weekend)

Also seems a switched bike would be a slight disadvantage compared to a dedicated Cripple Triple, as you would always have a dead compression cycle.

Lower powered bikes definitely promote better riding and this idea seems like an exciting avenue that has me thinking for a AFM return.... ��

Current switch designs put it UNDER the seat, in the tail. It is not exposed on the surface of the bike and NEVER should be. In the event of a crash that would end badly. Not to mention the risk of close racing damaging the switch.

All triples suffer from the dead cylinder, no matter if they are switched or not. It is not legal in the AFM currently to remove the piston and rod; nor can you without balance issues. If you added a bob weight to the crank for balance then you are violating the current AFM rules.

In NZ they have developed the bob weight and found no appreciable difference at the top end. Might look better on the dyno but in actual racing it is not a game changer and not worth the effort.

Currently in the AFM, the highest HP triple is a disabled fuel mod (same thing as a switched 450). Even bikes with ground cams, removed valves, etc. are not putting down as much horsepower as that bike is.

Food for thought.
 

ChampR1

Well-known member
Next question; how does one set up a bike to turn off fuel and spark to 1 cylinder and change fuel map at the flip of a switch?
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
Next question; how does one set up a bike to turn off fuel and spark to 1 cylinder and change fuel map at the flip of a switch?

1. You don't turn off spark. There is no value.
2. You don't change the fuel map based on 450/600. There is no value in my experience. Map as a 600 and run as a 450.

So that leaves you with a switch (already designed by Charles) that switches you from the real injectors to the dummy injectors.

You could switch maps and that is up to your piggyback system. The one I use is just a closed vs. open circuit.
 

Phanuel

Confused
Well, now I kind of want that switch since I'm just a trackday rider and I have no post race tech requirement...
 

MZarra

AFM Treasurer
Well, now I kind of want that switch since I'm just a trackday rider and I have no post race tech requirement...

The bypass I am sending you is easy to switch.

A proper switch is really only useful when you have a 10 minute window between races to switch from a 450 to a 600.

On a track day you generally have 40 minutes or so to switch and just disconnecting the bypass is easy to do.

I don't run a switch and I do not foresee running a switch in the future.

I just pull the bypass if I am going to run 600 that day or that afternoon.
 
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