A Friends Incident - opinion request

[ScottRNelson]

A bus doors the rider, splitting through two lanes of traffic- not the curb side, or anything foolish like that- and ya'll blame the rider?

I still blame the rider. It was a dumb move. It was an unsafe move.

If you go through your riding career expecting everybody else to always do the right thing, you'll eventually get nailed by something stupid like a bus opening their door unexpectedly. You can't trust everybody else to do the right thing, you have to ride so that when they do something wrong they still can't get you.

 

[Enchanter]

We're moving away from the purpose of the Crash Analysis forum. Let's bring things back on point.

Legal fault isn't the issue here. Riding in a manner that relies on others to do the right thing is problematic at best, deadly at the worst.

 

[afm199]

If it were a car who'd doored the rider, nobody would blink, the car driver/occupant would be clearly at fault. A bus doors the rider, splitting through two lanes of traffic- not the curb side, or anything foolish like that- and ya'll blame the rider?

Sorry folks. The rider was in the right; the driver was in the wrong for opening the door into traffic, regardless if bus/car/whatever vehicle.

Agreed that the rider could have been more prudent with how they approached that situation, but it's really, really easy to armchair quarterback after the fact, especially with the distortion that wide angle video adds to our understanding of the situation.

O, legally, the rider was probably in the right.

As a survivor and motorcycle rider, he's a total failure. That was a total no no stupid ass move. And that's what counts. The law only applies if there is a way to enforce it. But survival skills don't worry about that, they enable one to continue respiration.

 

[ontherearwheel]

First..........that is a solid yellow with a dash yellow on the left side......that is a center left turn lane and only should be entered when doing a left turn.

Second, the riders experience, seat time is not known. By seat time, I mean hours........not months or years.

That was a bad judgement call based on either inexperience or complacency.

There are times to split and times not to, knowing the difference is of great importance to safe motorcycling.

 

[Beanzy]

Okay, here's my third crash analysis:

As riders, except at merging lanes, we can split just about anywhere.

And we're usually judged 55% at fault when we split and a mishap ensues.

Now if the rider filed a police report, the police report would most likely say the rider was "doored" by the bus driver opening his front door.

However, as the rider had a narrower "lane" in which to split due to the size and length of the buses, and the loss of the passing lane on the left, I bet the police report would say the rider made a mistake in judgment by attempting the split. Thus he was 55% percent at fault for this mishap.

Could and should he have foreseen that the bus driver on the left might have opened his doors? No. But that possibility does not take away from the idea that the rider chose a course of action that had a 50/50 chance of a mishap occurring at speed (his bar end could have clipped the side of the bus, he could have ridden into the side of a bus, the left bus could hsve driven to the right before making a left, thus squeezing the rider against the second bus, etc.).

 

[afm199]

Okay, here's my third crash analysis:

As riders, except at merging lanes, we can split just about anywhere.

And we're usually judged 55% at fault when we split and a mishap ensues.

Now if the rider filed a police report, the police report would most likely say the rider was "doored" by the bus driver opening his front door.

However, as the rider had a narrower "lane" in which to split due to the size and length of the buses, and the loss of the passing lane on the left, I bet the police report would say the rider made a mistake in judgment by attempting the split. Thus he was 55% percent at fault for this mishap.

Could and should he have foreseen that the bus driver on the left might have opened his doors? No. But that possibility does not take away from the idea that the rider chose a course of action that had a 50/50 chance of a mishap occurring at speed (his bar end could have clipped the side of the bus, he could have ridden into the side of a bus, the left bus could hsve driven to the right before making a left, thus squeezing the rider against the second bus, etc.).

Incorrect. You can't ride in bicycle lanes, and passing on the right rules are the same for cars and motorcycles.

 

[Lonster]

Incorrect. You can't ride in bicycle lanes, and passing on the right rules are the same for cars and motorcycles.

And I'm pretty sure it's against the law to use the center turn lane pass a vehicle. (Or split passed a vehicle)

 

[Beanzy]

Incorrect. You can't ride in bicycle lanes, and passing on the right rules are the same for cars and motorcycles.

If the middle lane is a left turn and passing lane -- I seem to recall a broken yellow in the middle (left of the rider's side) -- how is it a bicycle lane? :confused

 

[Enchanter]

Pertinent info:

A center left turn lane is located in the middle of a two-way street and is marked on both sides by two painted lines. The inner line is broken and the outer line is solid. If a street has a center left turn lane, you must use it to prepare for or make a left turn, or to prepare for or make a permitted U-turn (CVC §21460.5 (c)). You may only drive for 200 feet in the center left turn lane. This lane is not a regular traffic lane or a passing lane. To turn left from this lane, signal, look over your shoulder, and drive completely inside the center left turn lane. Do not stop with the back of your vehicle blocking traffic. Make sure the lane is clear in both directions and then turn only when it is safe. Look for vehicles coming toward you in the same lane, preparing to start their left turn.

Link to DMV page: here

If the middle lane is a left turn and passing lane -- I seem to recall a broken yellow in the middle (left of the rider's side) -- how is it a bicycle lane? :confused

 

[Lonster]

Exactly Enchanter. The motorcycle was making an illegal passing/splitting maneuver, and was thusly rewarded with a slap of fate. I bet the rider was cited, and no fault was issued to the bus driver. (speculation)

 

[Beanzy]

Pertinent info:


Link to DMV page: here

So it's not a bicycle lane (and for that matter a passing lane).

So the rider stayed in his lane and attempted a foolish split. Got it.

Question is, Will he attempt this silly behavior again, hoping for a different outcome?

Answer: Probably. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, dang! Shoulda learned the first time.

 

[W800]

I can't comment on the legality of what the bus driver did or didn't do. But I've been riding for a long time (45 years :afm199) and I finally got the the point where it doesn't matter whether or not what the other person does is illegal or not. The reason is that if a driver does something illegal, and it kills me, the fact that what they did was illegal won't cause me to not be dead.

In the situation that your friend faced, I would have split the lane too. But I would have stopped by the door and "walked" (Fred-Flintstoned) the bike past the door. BTW, I'm one of those people who NEVER puts their feet down unless I absolutely need to. As soon as I leave a light, my feet are up. If I come to a stop sign, I stop and keep the bike balanced and keep my feet on the pegs, then go, etc. . .

But for something like this, where it's just so sketchy, I will "caveman" it, at like one MPH. At that speed, and since your are walking the bike, even if you get doored, not much will happen.

Others folks might not agree. I haven't seen anything in any of the books about this technique. And it's possibly bad (slippery roads being one reason). But it's been working for me. Never been doored (yet).

Hey folks, a month or more back a buddy of mine was in an incident in Oakland with the Emery-go-round bus system. He walked away with minor scratches and a few bent items on the bike.

[snip]

While I can easily acknowledge that splitting between two STOPPED buses isn't the safest practice, I can't understand how opening a bus door in the middle of a street is not fault causing in the eyes of the Emery-go-round system. Note that left bus is stopped behind traffic, right bus stops about the same distance forward, but no traffic in front of them.

Thoughts on who's at fault?

 

[afm199]

I can't comment on the legality of what the bus driver did or didn't do. But I've been riding for a long time (45 years :afm199) and I finally got the the point where it doesn't matter whether or not what the other person does is illegal or not. The reason is that if a driver does something illegal, and it kills me, the fact that what they did was illegal won't cause me to not be dead.

In the situation that your friend faced, I would have split the lane too. But I would have stopped by the door and "walked" (Fred-Flintstoned) the bike past the door. BTW, I'm one of those people who NEVER puts their feet down unless I absolutely need to. As soon as I leave a light, my feet are up. If I come to a stop sign, I stop and keep the bike balanced and keep my feet on the pegs, then go, etc. . .

But for something like this, where it's just so sketchy, I will "caveman" it, at like one MPH. At that speed, and since your are walking the bike, even if you get doored, not much will happen.

Others folks might not agree. I haven't seen anything in any of the books about this technique. And it's possibly bad (slippery roads being one reason). But it's been working for me. Never been doored (yet).

Spoken like a survivor. I'm of the "worst possible scenario" mindset. Every time I ride, bicycle or motorcycle, I assume that every other driver out there is waiting to kill me, and just wants me to look away. I stay the hell away from busses, trucks, and large moving masses, and never give them the chance to make my mindset justifiable.

 

[W800]

Spoken like a survivor. I'm of the "worst possible scenario" mindset. Every time I ride, bicycle or motorcycle, I assume that every other driver out there is waiting to kill me, and just wants me to look away. I stay the hell away from busses, trucks, and large moving masses, and never give them the chance to make my mindset justifiable.

Agreed! I remember when I started riding a lot in SF, I learned a motorcycle messenger trick. As you may know, SF pedestrians aren't like New York pedestrians. People treat SF like it's Disneyland, and are hence super random.

I was taught that if a pedestrian gets in front of you on the street (like not in a crosswalk), brake HARD but in a straight line. I was also told to shout the word "MOVE" (not use horn). This all happens in a few seconds.

The reason is that if you try and turn, they won't understand that you are countersteering. They will actually move into your intended turn because they subconsciously move the opposite direction of your bars. If you don't shout MOVE, they will freeze. Idea is to get them to move even a couple feet out of your path.

I've actually experienced this. And it's worked the few times I have had to use it.

For deer and other animals, turning makes sense when possible. But for people, straight line with extreme braking seems to work better.

 

[DannoXYZ]

Yeah hold your line and make them move! At least that breaks the mirror-image reflex response. I’ve seen two pedestrians on sidewalk come towards each other do the move-left, move-right mirror dance and eventually bump heads!

SF pedestrians are idiots. SF has some of highest pedestrian fatality rates out of any major city. Too much “i’m entitled and you have to watch out for me” syndrome, walking into street without looking while chattering/texting on their phones. I’m gonna start swiping phones if I see them when riding by and sell on fleabay!

 

[W800]

Yeah hold your line and make them move! At least that breaks the mirror-image reflex response. I’ve seen two pedestrians on sidewalk come towards each other do the move-left, move-right mirror dance and eventually bump heads!

SF pedestrians are idiots. SF has some of highest pedestrian fatality rates out of any major city. Too much “i’m entitled and you have to watch out for me” syndrome, walking into street without looking while chattering/texting on their phones. I’m gonna start swiping phones if I see them when riding by and sell on fleabay!

Yup! That's also how I walk in SF -I just keep a reasonable line and say excuse me if I need to (or I will move for elderly people or people with walkers, in wheelchairs, etc - it's harder for them to change lines, lol)