Trailbraking (split from The Right Start in 1Rider)

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
There are a lot of people out there who belabor things that don’t matter much. The excessive focus on the “smoothness” of transitioning off the gas and onto the brakes is one of these areas, IMO.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
There are a lot of people out there who belabor things that don’t matter much. The excessive focus on the “smoothness” of transitioning off the gas and onto the brakes is one of these areas, IMO.

Don’t disagree - transition from throttle to brake is much more about understanding initiating braking to set up the front suspension and then moving progressively to threshold braking as quickly as possible.

But transitioning off the front brake and onto the gas without seesawing the bike is an important skill for racing. For street riding, maybe not.

Then again, even for street riding, learning about and developing mastery of the skills involved is, for some, part of the appeal of riding.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
Smooth is my mantra ... when it comes to flowing into and out of the apex, before and after that the door is opened up a bit. :laughing

How far into and out of is relative to the day and the moment.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
But transitioning off the front brake and onto the gas without seesawing the bike is an important skill for racing. For street riding, maybe not.

Agree with this (as long as we’re leaving out the idea of overlapping the gas and brakes). Would say it matters on the street too.

Watching telemetry of the world’s top riders usually reveals a very quick, progressive transition from brakes to gas, with no overlap.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
where in the video did Bret mention that?

He really gets going with the point around 7:08 but starts it earlier.

Interesting points. So for street riding, you recommend no blending at all?

image from Nick Ienatsch (bought his book a while back, still need to read it ;) )
https://www.n2td.org/trail-braking/
"The confused “safety experts” in this country would have everyone believe that speed and safety are mutually exclusive"

For all riding situations, I recommend no overlap of front brake and throttle

IMO, That diagram is the best one floating around the internet. I personally think the braking %s are too high for a beginner around the 20%, but thats not a big deal. And some probably miss the nuance that the exit of the corner says "acceleration", not throttle. Converted to throttle %s will give higher %s, especially for fast corners.

It's "garbage" when you disagree with the words, but fail to think thru the message. His point on "blending the controls" is to keep tension on the driveline, both front and rear. We should get out of the one dimensional thinking that what racers do on tracks is what street riders should do on streets. "the whole point of braking is to slow down" is an example of the one dimensional thinking; it also affects front-rear weight balance, thus traction. The street is infinitely more varied than tracks, I assume you would agree to this, and Brett was teaching street techniques.

Why do you think your points matter more to safe riding than my points? I agree that overlap does something. But my whole point was that the "somethings" were small and/or had significant drawbacks. You brought up 2 very small somethings - tension and traction.

For example, what's more important - stopping in the distance you want with the minimum amount of brake or adding some tiny % to rear traction? Or what's more difficult to learn - using your right hand to apply throttle and brake to "keep tension" or just learning to trail off the brakes and roll on the throttle smoothly like a normal rider? (this one is easy since you have to do the 2nd to accomplish the 1st)
 
Last edited:

stangmx13

not Stan
Agree with this (as long as we’re leaving out the idea of overlapping the gas and brakes). Would say it matters on the street too.

Watching telemetry of the world’s top riders usually reveals a very quick, progressive transition from brakes to gas, with no overlap.

Top riders are gifted with the best possible electronic decel controls :D. Im not sure how much that matters though. I know that reducing the engine braking and tuning the slipper on my R6 helped my lap times. But I dont ever remember having an issue with full engine braking for street riding on my old CBR. You could chop the throttle when straight up without any consequence. However, those are both modern well-tuned motorcycles. I rode an 80's Sportster from SD to the Bay one time, garbage suspension and all. There were hairy moments, which makes me imagine that chopping the throttle hard may be a very bad idea.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
Agree with this (as long as we’re leaving out the idea of overlapping the gas and brakes). Would say it matters on the street too.

Agree - I think it does too. Maybe not something a beginner should try to tackle, but understanding how to keep from upsetting the suspension is an important riding skill.

Watching telemetry of the world’s top riders usually reveals a very quick, progressive transition from brakes to gas, with no overlap.

Are you sure about the "no overlap" part? How can you "transition" without any overlap? Smoothly rolling off the throttle, rather than chopping it, is good. But waiting until you get to fully closed before initiating braking makes no sense, and is not what happens.

That is where the advanced skill comes in - the skill I was referring to that was taught to me my first year of racing. So before you get to the "bottom" of the throttle, you are activating your front brake, setting up the suspension, and then going for maximum braking for the corner you're on (whatever "maximum" is for that corner).

During this time (it's hundredths of a second), you would have both the throttle a bit open (and on its way to closed) while you have the brakes initially on (on their way to full braking).
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
The diagrams we're discussing aren't depicting the hundredths of a second you refer to above. In your scenario, the throttle isn't driving forward against the front brake long enough to matter. In the case of closing the throttle and applying the brakes, it's probably at the point where there is no more acceleration where the brakes begin to come on. In the case of releasing the brakes and getting back to the throttle, you've at best just taken up the driveline slack as the brakes come off.

In the telemetry I've seen, the throttle is most often closed and the brake pressure begins to register just about simultaneously with throttle going to zero. If the rider is overlapping by a few hundredths, that's nowhere near the overlap being advocated in the diagram.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
[snip] If the rider is overlapping by a few hundredths, that's nowhere near the overlap being advocated in the diagram.

Got it - yes, agreed. Maybe I'll have to watch the long video to see more about what he's advocating - I only watched the 9 min one.
 

danate

#hot4beks
I have mostly learned through the Total Control curriculum, which advocates "blending controls" and I find it smoother than not using it especially in a street setting. The most noticeable point for me is when cracking the throttle once I've trail braked into the turn. The overlap is extremely small, but the jolt of cracking the throttle is reduced significantly by still holding a little bit of brake when the throttle is cracked. I find it less noticeable when applying the brakes from throttle and don't really consciously find myself doing that.

Keep in mind this is from a street riding perspective and my actions not being dictated by what I've learned, but by what feels best to me and allows me to be the most controlled in turns.

Having recently started riding the track, I also find myself using this technique when cracking the throttle in a turn as it just feels smoother and less likely to lose traction. It allows me to brake harder going into turns and carry more corner speed after having gotten on the throttle (sooner, in most cases). I'm no expert on the physics of it, but this has been my impression so far.

I think the way the technique is represented often comes off as spending a lot of time with the front brake on against the throttle and that's really not the case. The overlap is just enough to get to the braking threshold and just enough to get the throttle open. If it's being held any longer, then it's wrong and can be dangerous. This is the same as braking into a turn and then waiting (coasting) before cracking the throttle. The timing has to be exact.
 

stangmx13

not Stan
So far, everyone providing positive anecdotes for overlap are NOT advocating 50% throttle & 50% brake like the diagram above shows. That's a good start.
 

sk8norcal

Well-known member
So far, everyone providing positive anecdotes for overlap are NOT advocating 50% throttle & 50% brake like the diagram above shows. That's a good start.

That's depending on if people watched the video and listened to the part where Bret described what was meant by "50% throttle" (actually 100% throttle is where he explained it.)

I agree with you somewhat that the diagram is not the best. But basically both in the video and podcast, he is essentially talking about very slight blending.

Anyways, good discussion, I am learning a lot in this thread. :thumbup
 

sk8norcal

Well-known member
Somebody mention Lee Parks book, I think they are referencing this diagram.
chapter 9 throttle control...

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • blending lee parks.jpg
    blending lee parks.jpg
    45.3 KB · Views: 121
Last edited:

stangmx13

not Stan
More terrible diagrams! Not all instructors are created equal, especially when it comes to converting known concepts into instruction into diagrams!

That fast addition of lean angle is not how a motorcycle should be ridden when trail braking. For most corners that require braking, the lean angle curve should be nearly symmetrical around the max, not skewed heavily towards the braking side. If Lee Parks rides like that anywhere, hes slow and/or so timid that its masking mistakes. But id bet he doesnt ride anything like that.

That's depending on if people watched the video and listened to the part where Bret described what was meant by "50% throttle" (actually 100% throttle is where he explained it.)

I agree with you somewhat that the diagram is not the best. But basically both in the video and podcast, he is essentially talking about very slight blending.

Anyways, good discussion, I am learning a lot in this thread. :thumbup

He says "100%" is 100% of the amount being used at the time. So if a rider is cruising at 30% throttle into a corner, they'd be overlapping with 15% throttle at the "50%/50%" mark. They'd also being using so little brake and throttle that "upsetting the bike" probably isnt really a concern. At some point, mistakes become so small they arent noticeable. But thats a terrible way to learn something well.
 
Last edited:

ThinkFast

Live Long
OK. Listened to the podcast. First 15 mins or so, then skipped to 33:00 where they talk about the blending stuff. I agree with how they’re describing it.

My takeaway - don’t overcomplicate this with percentages and all that. Start with the goal - to get around the corner safely is number one. Number two is to do so as smoothly as possible, so as not to upset the suspension (seesawing). And number three - which follows if you get the second one right, is to put a smile on your face. Which is exactly what happens when you get it right. And the guys on the podcast even mention this. “No one will know how well you’re riding except you!”

Love that. Ok. I’m out. Great discussion. Now go ride!
 

sk8norcal

Well-known member
More terrible diagrams! Not all instructors are created equal, especially when it comes to converting known concepts into instruction into diagrams!

yeah, not a fan of that one, regardless of the data accuracy.

I think these diagrams are becoming dated as a teaching tool.
Theres days, most new riders are not even gonna read a book, they rather watch a video instead. :laughing (search trail braking on youtube and see the top 10 videos that pop up)

Personally something 3D with graphics overlay makes much more sense to me. But requires more skill to make.

I thought I remember seeing something like this with graphics overlay.
(or I was wishing this has graphics when I saw this shot angle)
https://youtu.be/KjLVwTGt2Ds?t=521

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • canyonchaser turning.jpg
    canyonchaser turning.jpg
    103.2 KB · Views: 105
Last edited:
Top