Incomplete Pass

tankerman

Well-known member
Great post. Another thing to keep in mind is that when attempting to pass a line of slow cars you must anticipate another driver up ahead might do the same thing and hasn't seen you.
 

IAmA M0t0r Ridεr

Well-known member
I guess this is a Latin-american thing; I used it in car groups back in the day. But I hope you got left and right blinkers switched wrong... Otherwise a colombo-brazilian group would be a deadly cocktail.

Nope, this is how we'd do it. You turn your blink left, means YOU're going left, why would one pass then? You turn your right, means you may even go to a shoulder/turn around location, than means, check, go.
 

latindane

Learner. EuroPW, NaPS
IAmA M0t0r Ridεr;8517122 said:
Nope, this is how we'd do it. You turn your blink left, means YOU're going left, why would one pass then? You turn your right, means you may even go to a shoulder/turn around location, than means, check, go.

Deadly cocktail indeed. Our logic was: left blinker means safe to overtake (on the left); right blinker means stay on, or return to, your lane (we drive on the right side of the road)
 
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clutchslip

Not as fast as I look.
IAmA M0t0r Ridεr;8516513 said:
Interesting read. I don't get how two motorcycles can crash head on, on a small swerve could save both. Unless they swerve in the same direction? Really unlucky, I'd assume only in a really blind turn such a scenario could happen.
Apparently, you have not really noticed the closing rate of two vehicles traveling in opposite directions at say 65 mph. There actually might not be time to do anything, depending on the circumstances.
I strongly recommend against using someone else's judgment when making a pass.

Pass only when you can see WITH YOUR OWN EYES that you have enough road to complete it safely.
This seems like an obvious road survival idea, but apparently it is not so obvious to some.
IAmA M0t0r Ridεr;8516699 said:
I disagree. It can help. Ultimately it's on you, but at least it tells you when it's a good time to take a peek.
Why would you entrust someone else with your life that you don't know? We do it enough just riding in our lane. How do you know what they see? What if they are half blind, or drugged, or just can't judge closing rates (most people can't judge speeds very well, btw).

Then there is the possibility of nefarious behavior. Yes, this happens, too. And once you have been the victim of someone attempting to have you pass at an inappropriate moment, you will never trust anyone again. Well, if you are wise. And yes, this has happened to me. I would never trust a stranger to indicate a safe pass for me.
 
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IAmA M0t0r Ridεr

Well-known member
Taking a peek is not the same as passing, not even the same as going side by side as the car you plan to pass. Means just doing enough so you can see for yourself. It minimizes exposure, actually.

Read my post again, maybe you'll get it this time?
 

clutchslip

Not as fast as I look.
IAmA M0t0r Ridεr;8529683 said:
Taking a peek is not the same as passing, not even the same as going side by side as the car you plan to pass. Means just doing enough so you can see for yourself. It minimizes exposure, actually.

Read my post again, maybe you'll get it this time?
I got it the first time. 1Rider is about the safest things to do. You are still trusting someone else's judgement to "take a peek". There is no need for that. When you can see, you can see. "Don't trust drivers to make your riding decisions", is the advice of many of us on barf. And I am reinforcing that, again.
 

Carlo

Kickstart Enthusiast
I recently read about a crash where one lane-splitter rear-ended another when the lead rider had to take evasive action. The need for adequate following distance and keen awareness beyond the vehicle immediately ahead applies equally when splitting.

Other than the 40mph limit, I follow rules similar to yours when splitting. I want an open corridor ahead of me, and I don't trust another rider close behind me.

If traffic on a multi-lane highway is moving, don't lane share, just stay in the center of a traffic lane!

I don't drive on crowded freeways often these days, but when I do, if it's in California, I'm happy to plod along at 30 miles an hour with the cars and trucks.
If traffic slows down below that, I'll work my way through traffic by lane splitting for short periods of time, remaining in the traffic lanes the rest of the time. I don't want to be constantly watching my mirrors for people who like to split at more than 10mph above the flow.
The only time I'll split for longer stretches, is when traffic is stop-go-stop, or completely gridlocked.
 

Carlo

Kickstart Enthusiast
IAmA M0t0r Ridεr;8529683 said:
Taking a peek is not the same as passing, not even the same as going side by side as the car you plan to pass. Means just doing enough so you can see for yourself. It minimizes exposure, actually.

Read my post again, maybe you'll get it this time?

I understand where, Motor Rider is coming from. This isn't just a Brazil or Latin America thing. I've ridden with riders from Europe who do the same thing, although I didn't know what they were doing at the time.
And many of the youtube videos of group rides in Europe show this behavior; one rider makes the pass at a time, applying left turn signal at the start of the pass, then right turn signal at the end of the pass, at which point the next rider will start his pass, with the same signaling protocol.
As long as everyone is sure about what's going on ahead, it should be a safe way to manage group passes.
Trusting other road users who signal if its safe to pass isn't a new thing.
When I was a little kid back in the 1950's on vacation with my parents, we'd sometimes pass a truck in our Ford station wagon. I once asked my dad how he knew it was safe to pass (I really was thinking about that kind of thing at 7 years old!), and my father told me that the truck drivers signaled with their tail lights that the road ahead was clear.
 

GAJ

Well-known member
I always assume that the possible oncoming vehicle might be someone on a bike at excessive speed which at times leads to no passing on my part when others might attempt the pass.
 

latindane

Learner. EuroPW, NaPS
I always assume that the possible oncoming vehicle might be someone on a bike at excessive speed which at times leads to no passing on my part when others might attempt the pass.

That episode actually played out for me yesterday. A long sweeping right-hander, and I was stuck behind a slow construction vehicle. As I was considering a pass, the equivalent of a double yellow notwithstanding, I saw a bike coming in the opposite direction. The guy was RAILING around twice the speed limit. I'm glad I did not make the hasty decision to attempt a pass just moments earlier. But I was considering it.

Good conservative rule of thumb.
 

IAmA M0t0r Ridεr

Well-known member
I understand where, Motor Rider is coming from. This isn't just a Brazil or Latin America thing. I've ridden with riders from Europe who do the same thing, although I didn't know what they were doing at the time.
And many of the youtube videos of group rides in Europe show this behavior; one rider makes the pass at a time, applying left turn signal at the start of the pass, then right turn signal at the end of the pass, at which point the next rider will start his pass, with the same signaling protocol.
As long as everyone is sure about what's going on ahead, it should be a safe way to manage group passes.
Trusting other road users who signal if its safe to pass isn't a new thing.
When I was a little kid back in the 1950's on vacation with my parents, we'd sometimes pass a truck in our Ford station wagon. I once asked my dad how he knew it was safe to pass (I really was thinking about that kind of thing at 7 years old!), and my father told me that the truck drivers signaled with their tail lights that the road ahead was clear.

Exactly.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
As long as everyone is sure about what's going on ahead, it should be a safe way to manage group passes.
Here's the problem, Carlo, and why I maintain emphatically...
Pass only when you can see WITH YOUR OWN EYES that you have enough road to complete it safely.
You don't know what the signaling rider sees, nor do you have reason to trust his judgment, nor do you have reason to believe you share his tolerance for risk when passing.


Maybe you have a riding buddy you've shared so many road miles with that you trust him implicitly in every respect--the kind of guy you would confidently go into combat with. That's a great kind of relationship to have with a riding companion, and I wouldn't argue with your choice to let him make passing decisions for you (and you for him).

But let's say instead that you're in a random group of riders you met up with, via a web forum, at the Frostbite Falls Cafe. Before heading out, the self-appointed leader asks, "Does everyone understand the passing signal protocol?" All nod and mumble affirmatively, and off you go. Now, as you're approaching a blind right curve, the rider immediately ahead completes a pass and gives the OK signal for you to pass too. Do you trust your life to him?

That's what you're recommending when you say "it should be a safe way to manage group passes." Maybe it is for you and your buddy, but not for the random group.

I want to make absolutely certain that everyone who happens upon this thread understands the 1Rider recommendation as I stated it above.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
If anyone wants to discuss group passing protocols, please take it to General. Further discussion in 1Rider will be deleted.
 

Carlo

Kickstart Enthusiast
I was going to edit my post after recieving a respectful PM from another user pointing out that my comment isn't appropriate in this discussion.

I failed to make it clear that even with an agreed upon signalling protocol, among trusted riders, common sense, and one's own senses are paramount.
I've got a dozen or so friends with whom I've ridden for many years, and covered many miles. I'd trust them all with my life, but If one of them should signal "follow me" on a pass which I wasn't certain of (hasn't happened, hence, my trust) I wouldn't do it.

"My Bad"

I'll leave at that.


Here's the problem, Carlo, and why I maintain emphatically...
Pass only when you can see WITH YOUR OWN EYES that you have enough road to complete it safely.
You don't know what the signaling rider sees, nor do you have reason to trust his judgment, nor do you have reason to believe you share his tolerance for risk when passing.


Maybe you have a riding buddy you've shared so many road miles with that you trust him implicitly in every respect--the kind of guy you would confidently go into combat with. That's a great kind of relationship to have with a riding companion, and I wouldn't argue with your choice to let him make passing decisions for you (and you for him).

But let's say instead that you're in a random group of riders you met up with, via a web forum, at the Frostbite Falls Cafe. Before heading out, the self-appointed leader asks, "Does everyone understand the passing signal protocol?" All nod and mumble affirmatively, and off you go. Now, as you're approaching a blind right curve, the rider immediately ahead completes a pass and gives the OK signal for you to pass too. Do you trust your life to him?

That's what you're recommending when you say "it should be a safe way to manage group passes." Maybe it is for you and your buddy, but not for the random group.

I want to make absolutely certain that everyone who happens upon this thread understands the 1Rider recommendation as I stated it above.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
You're out for a ride on one of California's best roads, South Grade Road--the "front side"--up Palomar Mountain. Immediately after turning from SR-76, you decide to use the initial straight to get past those dweebs in cars ahead of you so they won't douse your buzz.

Would this be a good place to pass?



Yeah, probably not.

"As the motorcyclist was coming up on a 2004 Toyota Corolla...he attempted to pass the vehicle over the double yellow line. He failed to realize that the vehicle was turning left into Oak Knoll campground. This caused the motorcyclist to collide into the left side of the Toyota Corolla."​

The "passer vs. passee" crash is surprisingly common, but it's easy to avoid.
 
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DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
THREE MORE passer vs. passee crashes

#1. Saturday May 24. On Angeles Forest Highway in Los Angeles County, a 64yo Ducati rider was killed when he attempted to pass a Toyota as it turned left onto Upper Big Tujunga Canyon:




#2. Sunday June 1. In Taunton, Massachussets, a 25yo woman suffered a "significant leg injury" (sometimes code for "amputation" in motorcycle news stories) when she attempted to pass a car as it turned left at this intersection :




#3. Monday June 2. A 31yo Ducati rider in upstate New York suffered injuries serious enough to earn a helicopter ride after crashing when he attempted to pass a garbage truck as it turned left at this intersection:

 
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DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
Passer vs passee: Tractor

I wasn't sure what I'd find when I looked up this old thread. I didn't expect to find my two posts from 6 years ago on the very subject I'm posting about today: Passer vs passee.

This kind of crash occurs when a rider is making a pass, usually on a rural road, and the vehicle being passed turns left. One factor that makes it more likely is passing multiple vehicles--while the first driver being passed may see the motorcycle, the guy at the head of the pack making the turn probably doesn't. Another is the lead vehicle being a tractor or other farm vehicle--which may not have great mirrors. Both of those factors contributed to a crash yesterday a few miles from Rancho DataDan.

A Harley rider from Arroyo Grande was northbound here...


looking north on Orcutt Rd in rural San Luis Obispo County

...and attempted to pass two vehicles, first a car, then a tractor moving at about 15mph. Unexpectedly, the tractor turned left into the driveway, and was hit by the motorcycle, killing the rider. RIP. :rose

This is a surprisingly common kind of crash, but it's not hard to avoid--IF the scenario triggers yellow alert in your situational awareness cortex. You want to pass, but the vehicle you're trying to get around has a left-turn opportunity. Simply WAIT until you're past the intersection or driveway or campground or turnout, then make your move.

In addition, when riding near a non-roadgoing farm vehicle, show the driver some courtesy; it's not an easy job. Keep speed down, stay visible, and give 'em a wave when you go by.
 
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