Down hill over 1-2 ft dirt water bars

[KooLaid]

Going up isn't an issue over these dirt water bars I see on double track, just send it and it's no biggie whether I go nose high or nose low since basically I just go....out, not up. However going down hill at a decent 20+ mph, I can't just "send" it. Hit it fast and my head is in the tree branches or I REALLY go out too far and off cliffs, down hills, but off the trail. So I slow down and roll it but I still get that back end to buck upward sending it nose low and semi out of control.

Any tips on hitting these 1-2 ft dirt water bars at speed without going over the bars?

 

[Butch]

Ya just have to fully commit.
For me, neutral weight, neutral throttle, spring off it like a jump. Gas a bit even.

For me, I can do all these things, but not at much speed. I too old for that shit.

 

[metalmaster]

just use a little throttle as you hit the face, then brake.
rinse and repeat until you get to the bottom.

 

[OaklandF4i]

If you are coming nose low off any jump up or downhill, its usually due to a decelerating engine. As the engine continues to decelerate, its similar to applying the rear brake while in the air. The force pulls the front down.

So as Butch said, neutral body and neutral (or even a tiny bit positive) throttle. The affect is worse on fourstrokes generally. So if you are using engine braking coming down, pull in the clutch or give it a blip before leaving the lip. You don't have to "send" it, just a blip will do.

Your body can absorb a lot of the water bar too with practice. Suck the bike up under you as you go over the lip, or if really aggressive, preload the suspension just before the bar face and let it rebound BEFORE the lip.. sucking the bike up underneath you as it rebounds. Its the lazyman's offroad version of the Bubba Scrub (without the extreme whip or laying the bike over.) But same basic concept, absorbing the jump and reducing the height your bike travels. Once over the lip, extend your body to push the bike back down.

Lots of throttle will raise the front off the lip or in the air, rear brake the opposite off the lip or in the air. Fun to practice off small stuff to get used to it. If you have ever seen a really talented guy scream the engine when flying nose down... it isnt panic rev. Its him trying to bring the rear down.

Learning to weight and unweight the suspension can really help to smooth out rough trails too. Even a 1-2" bunny hop kind of move can really help.

 

[dbc]

If your rear end is "bucking" upwards rolling over water bars, turn your shock rebound in a few clicks till the butt slap stops. Be careful not to go too far in- if you do, the rear will uncontrollably bounce around under braking.
I often use water bars to get my suspension in the ball park..

 

[Butch]

CJ reminds me of something.
Back in the day when I was a big skier, we executed a “pre-jump” move to deal with something similar to a water bar at speed. We usually wanted to keep skiis on snow when hauling ass.

Essentially, spring up before the obstacle and jump over it.

I don’t think I have ever purposely done that on a motorcycle. I might have to try that today. Or tomorrow. Maybe Monday.

 

[Butch]

OMG. I learned something today.

CJ said... “Suck the bike up under you as you go over the lip, or if really aggressive, preload the suspension just before the bar face and let it rebound BEFORE the lip.. sucking the bike up underneath you as it rebounds...”

This is my “prejump”. Executed aggressively, it is a physical task, as you pull the bike up and over the obstacle.

I intentionally did this today at Metcalf, on the MX track, and on Trail 1 that has a downhill waterbar.

My goodness, it worked quite well.
So there. BARF delivers.

 

[OaklandF4i]

OMG. I learned something today.

Gerhard (WFO) puts me to shame. I followed him downhill at Stonyford some years back and he rides like it's flat land even throwing a little whip in. Always learning from faster or more experienced folks. Never ending learning experience.......

It becomes less of a physical effort the more you do it and realize how little you have to load an unload to make it work.

 

[KooLaid]

OMG. I learned something today.

CJ said... “Suck the bike up under you as you go over the lip, or if really aggressive, preload the suspension just before the bar face and let it rebound BEFORE the lip.. sucking the bike up underneath you as it rebounds...”

This is my “prejump”. Executed aggressively, it is a physical task, as you pull the bike up and over the obstacle.

I intentionally did this today at Metcalf, on the MX track, and on Trail 1 that has a downhill waterbar.

My goodness, it worked quite well.
So there. BARF delivers.

I need to give this a try in a couple weeks during my week long Mammoth Lakes riding trip.

In other news, I need to practice how to whip lol

 

[Hammerstime]

I would slow down a little bit before the water bar and roll on the gas as I came to the face of it. Doing so loads the suspension before the face and then unloads it slightly as the throttle is applied. You don't want to be on the brakes at all on the face. This will cause the suspension to load and you get the pogoing off the water bar. It's not an easy thing to do, but when you get it down there's a sweet spot where you are able to blast them without much worry.

 

[elemetal]

On the gas somewhat and slip the clutch right as your front comes off the top. How much you slip controls how high your front is/how far you go. Showed this technique to a couple of guys at the last Stony BARF and they said it helped quite a bit. Works downhill and uphill.

"Front tire is only there to show the back tire where to go..."(old trials saying).

 

[OaklandF4i]

I would slow down a little bit before the water bar and roll on the gas as I came to the face of it. Doing so loads the suspension before the face and then unloads it slightly as the throttle is applied. You don't want to be on the brakes at all on the face. This will cause the suspension to load and you get the pogoing off the water bar. It's not an easy thing to do, but when you get it down there's a sweet spot where you are able to blast them without much worry.

:thumbup

On the gas somewhat and slip the clutch right as your front comes off the top. How much you slip controls how high your front is/how far you go. Showed this technique to a couple of guys at the last Stony BARF and they said it helped quite a bit. Works downhill and uphill.

"Front tire is only there to show the back tire where to go..."(old trials saying).

Use the clutch all the time uphill, never thought of doing it down hill over water bars. Good idea, going to try it out Luke.

 

[kxmike]

I've been jumping downhill off water bars (and anything else I can find) for decades. My technique is off throttle or neutral throttle right before jump and a quick short blip as I leave the lip to help control flight angle. Of course body english plays a big part in all of it too. You can absorb the jump with your legs to keep low or you can push in to it and rebound off it to get more air. It all takes practice to get the timing right.

 

[Butch]

Fine tuning yesterday.
Yup, CJ is right. A little bounce down on the pegs before the bump and the thing gets sucked up effortlessly.

Timing, of course, is everything. Lots of variables.

 

[KooLaid]

Fine tuning yesterday.
Yup, Cj is right. A little bounce down on the pegs before the bump and the thing gets sucked up effortlessly.

Timing, of course, is everything. Lots of variables.

I'm anxious to give it a try. It's like the linkage rear end of my 450 SXF worked so much better in general than my new PDS 300 XCW

 

[James]

I'm anxious to give it a try. It's like the linkage rear end of my 450 SXF worked so much better in general than my new PDS 300 XCW

annnd, you just thread jacked your own thread!:

Can you expand on your opinion of PDS vs linkage? I have read the varying rider reports and comparisons, but I always like to hear more experience. I am going to be upgrading the 03 WR450 dual sport with one of the European dual sports in the next few months. For me, the KTM vs Husky debate comes down to the shock setup. I am leaning towards the Beta, but in case I can't go Italian....

Sorry to encourage the thread jacking

James

*Edit - I was going to suggest a weekend at Stony and practice on every down hill. There aren't any trees and no shortage of water bars. Riding through there on the pig of a WR450 or the YZ250, I try to make every one of them special. I mix up 5th gear with throttle control and putting the bike in neutral and shutting it off. I mentally imagine I am on a bicycle. In 5th gear with the bike running, I rarely use the brakes and blip throttle. In neutral, with the bike off, I can hear and feel each brake input. Either way, I am letting the bike flow as fast as it wants. A secondary focus is on my thighs and breathing. It translates to trail riding for me.

 

[gixxerjeff]

Good info here.
Like Butch, this thread has provided me ideas and motivation to get out and practice.
A special thanks to CJ for the details. :thumbup

 

[KooLaid]

annnd, you just thread jacked your own thread!:

Can you expand on your opinion of PDS vs linkage? I have read the varying rider reports and comparisons, but I always like to hear more experience. I am going to be upgrading the 03 WR450 dual sport with one of the European dual sports in the next few months. For me, the KTM vs Husky debate comes down to the shock setup. I am leaning towards the Beta, but in case I can't go Italian....

Sorry to encourage the thread jacking

James

LoL, plenty of good info that I was looking for already shared so it's all good.

Well my opinion is only within my 2020 300 XC-W with XPLOR coil sprung fork and PDS, my recently sold 2018 450 SX-F with Aer48 air sprung fork and linkage. Suspension on both are unaltered including preload, dampening settings, except the aer48 fork which I played with air pressure, however the topic is rear end. Dampening settings were always left at book recommendations, rear shock preload is from the factory/dealer.

The most notable differences is the PDS seems stiffer initally, higher ride height, and seemingly less smooth through the inital wheel travel during low to medium travel. Even others with various height and weight noticed the most that my PDS bike sits higher, much higher than the linkage bike. The linkage bike seems smooooooother during all amounts of travel, big and small bumps and just more active. However, the PDS does what I need it to and doesn't beat me up, it just seems to like to buck more over sharp downhill bumps. The linkage never did that, seemed to soak in more and just simply work better.

My idea of a perfect bike would be...... 450 XC-FW with the usual W stuff like headlight, bigger clear tank, speedo/odo, kickstand, 18" rear wheel BUT with the EXPLOR forks and linkage rear end. The big 450 makes up for my lack of skill and clutch control with massive amounts of power at all rpms, with the W gearbox gearing that would mean even at walking speed without clutching it.

 

[Kestrel]

Jumped a waterbar wrong a couple years ago and ended up with a few broken ribs. :rolleyes

But ... that hasn't stopped me from continuing to jump them. :cool

 

[KooLaid]

Well didn't get to practice it at all. I don't recall there being any water bars at all around the area of mammoth lol. However I did learn alot about my new 300 PDS bike, over came the lack of monster 450 4 stroke power with preloading and body english.