C.A.R.B. and MC emissions; the study, the future of Red Stickers

m0t0_ryder

m0t0_ryder

RYD!
Hmmmmm....

Looks like the path to the end of using "racing" motorcycles for recreational use.

I do hate the EPA ... and CARB.
 
KrustyKruser

KrustyKruser

El Chingon
So they are planning to do away with the red sticker program, does that mean all current red sticker bikes will be given green stickers and competition bikes will be hard to get in future? Maybe will force factories to make the CRF, YZF, etc... to be emissions compliant and able to register for road use...
 
M

mbrick

Well-known member
KrustyKruser said:
So they are planning to do away with the red sticker program, does that mean all current red sticker bikes will be given green stickers and competition bikes will be hard to get in future? Maybe will force factories to make the CRF, YZF, etc... to be emissions compliant and able to register for road use...
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I read the contrary and that they would try to ban all current red sticker bikes since they were intended for competition use anyway. Doubt it would stand from a legal standpoint.

But, at this point, your guess is as good as mine. Sure would be nice if they eliminated red sticker altogether.
 
B

Brewster

Well-known member
mbrick said:
I read the contrary and that they would try to ban all current red sticker bikes since they were intended for competition use anyway. Doubt it would stand from a legal standpoint.
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Current red stickered OHV's would most likely be grandfathered into future legislation and not banned. Future emission level requirements could eliminate the sales of NEW non-compliant vehicles. C.A.R.B. can only set emission standards.

Ride on
Brewster
CORVA
 
wilit

wilit

Well-known member
My take from it was once the red sticker program sunsets, those bikes would green sticker like they did with ATVs. Yay for current red sticker owners.

However... And this is a big however... My interpretation on this is there is going to be a major crackdown on new bikes being able to be sold and registered in CA if they don't meet the new emissions standards. Brands like KTM and Beta have kind of stepped up and moving forward are only going to offer 4-stroke bikes that meet road legal emissions standards which far exceeds those requirements of green sticker emissions. If a bike doesn't meet the new standard, I got the impression it would not be allowed for sale in CA.

It looks like they're going to tighten up the requirements for "competition only" bikes and I'm sure there's probably going to be a requirement to show your involvement in racing to be able to purchase and keep the bike in CA.
 
N

ninjazx6d

Member
I contacted Cassie Lopina at CARB to clarify how the red sticker program would end and this was her response that she sent to me yesterday:

Our plan for ending the red sticker program is to sunset it in two steps. First, the sale of new sticker vehicles will be prohibited. This will simply mean that all new vehicles sold must meet existing green sticker standards. Next, we will end riding restrictions on existing vehicles. This means that some date in the future all current red sticker vehicles will be awarded a green sticker and can be used anywhere all year long.

Hopefully this information eases your concerns about existing red sticker vehicles. Our goal is not to penalize riders, but to create a better program where all OHVs can be used year round!
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That was music to my ears :) I was thinking of selling my 2008 200 XC-W, but I might keep it now.


I also asked if the 2018 KTM fuel-injected 2-strokes would be green sticker, and this was her response:

I am very excited about KTM’s fuel injected 4-stroke technology. We are looking forward to working with KTM to hopefully test one of these vehicles in our emissions lab. I am not sure if they plan to certify the vehicle as red or green sticker now, but I recently saw one in person and they looked really promising!
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S

Sdiii

Active member
ninjazx6d said:
I contacted Cassie Lopina at CARB to clarify how the red sticker program would end and this was her response that she sent to me yesterday:




That was music to my ears :) I was thinking of selling my 2008 200 XC-W, but I might keep it now.


I also asked if the 2018 KTM fuel-injected 2-strokes would be green sticker, and this was her response:
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Thank you for this information! This is awesome!
 
KooLaid

KooLaid

Hippocritapotamus
ninjazx6d said:
I contacted Cassie Lopina at CARB to clarify how the red sticker program would end and this was her response that she sent to me yesterday:




That was music to my ears :) I was thinking of selling my 2008 200 XC-W, but I might keep it now.


I also asked if the 2018 KTM fuel-injected 2-strokes would be green sticker, and this was her response:
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you ask about 2 stroke, she responds with 4 stroke.
 
Butch

Butch

poseur
Staff member
Last week there was a workshop on the evolution of the regulatory proposal. Attached (er, next pane) is an outline of that presentation. I went through it and drew some conclusions, though some of the jargon was confusing.

I just talked to Scott Monday and Scott Bacon at CARB. Good guys. They are trying to accommodate our sport. They are on our side.
The outline is a little confusing, but the key items for me is the plan to phase out the Red Stocker Program. In 2025 red sticker seasonal riding restrictions will be lifted.

The presentation addresses how to manufacture OHV that are clean. The two factors are exhaust and evaporative (while stored) emissions. Standards are being adjusted to allow Green Sticker bikes to be sold in 2022.

A comment of note is the “Emissions Inventory” refers to the cumulative emissions our OHVs produce. Though they produce hundreds of times more emissions per mile than cars, the shear volume of cars still produce more pollution that we do.

Amended program documents will be released in December for the 45 day public review and comment period before the next CARB meeting currently scheduled for February 21. 2019.
 
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usedtobefast

Well-known member
So if in 2021 you buy a new Red Sticker bike, then in 2021, 22, 23, and 24 you have a limited riding area/season (current red sticker limitations). But then in 2025, that same 2021 red sticker bike is then able to be ridden any time at any location?

And in 2022 if you want to buy a new Red Sticker bike, you can only use it for competitions and not ride it anywhere else, for the rest of the bike's life in California? That right? (Well, I guess you could ride it at a place like Club Moto, etc)
 
Butch

Butch

poseur
Staff member
Only if you wear red socks.
In a Blue state,
On Tuesday,
Full moon.
Etc.

Edit: I might guess that non compliant competition bikes will not have registration valid for use on public lands. They won't need a red sticker. Use it on private property, have a field day. Exceptions will prolly exist...
 
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usedtobefast

Well-known member
I'm thinking I need to buy about 15 red sticker bikes in 2021, keep'um in a crate, then open them up in 2025, list them on CL, and profit. :)
 
Butch

Butch

poseur
Staff member
I met with Janet Hawks, Deputy Director of Santa Clara County Parks last week. This is a draft which includes a red sticker issue:


Thank you for meeting with me last week. I believe my primary objective of making your acquaintance and establishing myself and my club (Bay Area Riders Forum) as credible representatives of the park system’s constituency was achieved. We see motorcycles as an important part of future local transportation solutions and Metcalf Motorcycle County Park is an important part of achieving that as safely as possible.

The second issue I had was the motocross track. Per your direction, I am still researching the funding stream of the track upgrade. More importantly, I have found some information regarding the use of the track by “Red Sticker” motorcycles during the seasonal red sticker exclusion.

As you know, Red Sticker Bikes are allowed to operate on a “Closed Course” in exclusion zones. California Air Resources Board, CARB, uses this definition of a closed course:

Division 16.5, Chapter 2, Article 1, Section 38014 
38014. As used in this division, "closed course" includes, but is not limited to, a speedway, racetrack, or a prescribed and defined route of travel on or off a highway that is closed to all motor vehicles other than those of participants. A closed course is one which is not available at any time for vehicular access by the general public.
 
http://www.easylawlookup.com/Califo...a=13247&p_epara=13591&par=13247&displayer=YES
 

Almost everything requires interpretation. I, and most the public, would interpret the motocross track, while being operated by a concessioner, open only to their clients, as closed course.

I request you do the same. This is in the best interest of the Santa Clara County taxpayers, the park users and the community in general. When people are unable to find a legitimate venue to recreate, they find alternatives, some of which are more destructive.

Allowing red sticker bikes to use the motocross track under these circumstances creates no risk and cost to the county. There is no “downside” to allowing this. If there was an actual problem to operating the track under this arrangement, CARB would raise the issue. If needed, a court ruling could easily determine the interpretation of the definitions, rather than you or I.

CARB has determined the “Red Sticker Program” to be ineffective and a phase out is planned, probably in 2025. Until that time Santa Clara County Parks can best serve the public by allowing closed course operation of red sticker bikes year round.

Thank you.
 
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Butch

Butch

poseur
Staff member
usedtobefast said:
Wow, awesome idea/approach.

Did she seem like it could be considered? Did she raise issues/concerns?
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She initiated the closure, so I don’t think so.

I am going to make this change:
“Almost everything requires interpretation. I, and most the public, would interpret the motocross track, while being operated by a concessioner, open only to their clients, as closed course. It is not open to the “general public”; only those who have signed liability waivers, paid for use and are using approved safety equipment.”
 
Butch

Butch

poseur
Staff member
Red sticker was discussed at the last meeting, item VI:

AGENDA
Meeting of the
OFF-HIGHWAY MOTOR VEHICLE RECREATION COMMISSION

March 1, 2019
Hilton Garden Inn Palmdale
1309 W. Rancho Vista Boulevard
Palmdale, CA 93551

The meeting will begin at 8:30 a.m.
Public Comment Period for Items Not on the Agenda (3b)(3c) will be held at 11:00 a.m.
The Commission will take a lunch break at approximately 12:00 p.m.
I. CALL TO ORDER
A. Pledge of Allegiance
B. Roll Call
C. Director’s Opening Remarks
II. AGENDA MANAGEMENT(1)(2)(3a)(3c)
III. COMMISSIONERS’ REPORTS
Commissioners’ Reports on any interactions they have had since the last Commission Meeting
IV. AD HOC COMMITTEE REPORTS
V. GREAT BASIN DISTRICT PROGRAM REPORTS
VI. PROGRAM REPORTS
A. CARB Red Sticker Off-Highway Vehicle...

It is in here in the linked video at the 3 hour, 43 minute point
http://cal-span.org/unipage/?site=c...QDrIlfbKje7mtcihlnPYgXdWO0CS-pGpdAEx-twPmYvJI
 
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