Just finished CMSP, need advice

Surj said:

...But here's the inherent contradiction in this discussion: it's in the industry's (and perhaps the riding community's) best interest to make training easy (in the sense of inexpensive, not overly time-consuming, etc), so more people get training, licensed and ride.

But getting more people on bikes with limited training isn't necessarily in the best interest of those people, as many of them are not equipped well-enough by that training to be functional motorcyclists, and ultimately get injured or killed or just give up.

We know damn well that a big percentage or riders absolutely fail at self-assessment of their skills, with horrible consequences.

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I will agree to this.

Thus why I am a huge proponent that since the limitation imposed to us instructors is reality, it is up to the instructor to mentor and be an influencer to continue their training until they decide they will stop riding all together.

Most of our students are adults with varied to no riding experience. Some take our advice to gain further learning and technique building exercises on their own because reality is a very small to no students will jump out to do a street riding on a closed course such as CLASS and others. Even the IRC doesn't fully prepare a student to be proficient on the streets.

It is what it is.

It is all on one's personal desire and discipline to be a better and safer rider.

Damn, you guys all ROCK!!! Every bit of this helps a lot, thanks sincerely!!!

My general feeling is the CMSP driving test should not waive the DMV test. It's seems like an easy out and/or a false sense of confidence for total beginners who enter the course. There should be driving and written tests for the course itself, maybe with a grading scale that gives us an idea of how far we need to go to actually pass the DMV exams. That would have put my head in the right direction IMHO.

I had read the BARF sticky beforehand that said we'd get about 2% of what we need and enough to get started. Stuff like that provides perspective and really helped. I'll also add that I think CMSP does a bang-up job for the time allotted.

And as far as appreciating BARF, I really do! Don't think I've ever felt so supported. Thanks everyone.

PS: My copy of Proficient Motorcycling is in the mail :->>

In a Utopia world that would great but this is the way the state can provide an incentive for folks to take the course and to get their feet wet. I typically offer some exercises that students can do on their own at a near by parking lot particularly for hazard avoidance exercises.

stephanotis said:

My general feeling is the CMSP driving test should not waive the DMV test. It's seems like an easy out and/or a false sense of confidence for total beginners who enter the course. There should be driving and written tests for the course itself, maybe with a grading scale that gives us an idea of how far we need to go to actually pass the DMV exams. That would have put my head in the right direction IMHO.

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But if you pass the skills portion from an instructor that's certified in motorcycle training, what's the difference with passing in the course versus in front of DMV official who may not even ride? If you Youtube...DMV motorcycle test you'll find some where the official barely knows what the instructions for the skills exam are asking. I think the instructors are pretty good about finding out who should pass and who shouldn't. As said about it's all 15 mph skills. If you couldn't do them on the range, then now way they could be done at the DMV. If you passed off the range then there's a pretty good chance you'd pass the DMV, the only difference being with the CMSP course you get added education/instruction.

What a stunning thread

Folks,

I'm a nobody here but an old rider and I think that the OP did a remarkable job of stating the concerns. This prompted a flurry of help offerings, some spot on others not so much as I see it.

Perhaps the philosophy regarding the training courses was a bit above the level of the OP, but is still valid.

Maybe the OP would benefit more from help like TWT offered.

I can visualize the OP on a 50 cc bike in a parking lot getting used to the mechanics of the throttle, clutch and brakes rather quickly. After that light neighborhood rides with hills and stop signs???

John

Also Steph (aka OP)

YouTube. There are some peeps that post real good videos about basic moto skills. Supplement that with any instruction from experience people on here.

I was actually surprised that given my course was in the Bay Area that it didn't cover hills at all so I avoided them best I could until I found a guy in Australia on YouTube who gave a pretty good starting/stopping on hills tutoring. Now I have more confidence even on SF and Peninsula hills.

Folks,

I recall that back in '62 I was shown that on a 50 cc bike I could walk along side of it at a bit above idle.

Clutch and throttle control didn't take much time to get used to.

John

I agree with the OP in regards to the fact that completing the MSF is not going to completely prepare you for riding on the road. From my own experience it took me around 1500 miles of riding in various conditions before I became more or less comfortable riding on the street. I can’t really expect to have an instructor shadow me and give me advice for 1500 miles, it would have certainly helped, but what I got out of MSF was good enough to let me ride my new bike from the dealer to my house. In general, most any certification (be it for driving, gun ownership, operating heavy equipment, etc) in the US is not good enough to really prepare you for what you are about to embark on, it is always your own responsibility to get additional training; One can argue that this is a part of being in the land of the free
When I was working on getting my car license at 16 years of age, I got one of these instructors, forgot the name of the program, but it was and still is common for minors. Anyway, here is how my first car driving experience went:
Instructor: Do you smoke?
Me: Yeah
Instructor: I want you to light up a cigarette and smoke as we go through this. It will help you.
Me: Ok
Instructor: Ok, take a right at El Camino, you gotta get used to driving on the big streets. Don’t put out that cigarette. Get used to riding on the big streets and smoking!
Me: Ok
Instructor: Ok, you’re good. Here is your certificate.

I don't think anyone is ready when initially qualified... I have never taken a safety course and passed the DMV riding test after failing 3x first (actually this was like in 2001 and I used this place I found in the yellow pages called "we guarantee you pass". On test day they rolled out some 125 cc bike or something (somehow It qualified at the DMV and I passed). Needless to say, I probably should have taken the safety course. I crashed twice .once on the freeway. I took 6 years off but have been riding about 1 year now, and am much safer. I plan on going through a formal class, and know I have a ways to go. I hope this give perspective

motomania2007 said:

Why are you afraid to drop the bike?
Edited to add:
Btw, to be clear dropping is not the same as crashing. Dropping is dropping the bike while stopped or while attempting to get started from a stop...

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I may have worded that wrong or you misconstrued the severity but I'm not riding around with a constant fear of dropping it every time I come to a stop.

My bicycle handling skills transferred well into motorcycles but my bike is older with no frame sliders and expensive/rare plastics so I'd prefer not to drop it if I can remain conscious. I only feel iffy when I have to make tight turns from a stop and I'm aware of this which is why I go to empty lots to practice.

My general feeling is the CMSP driving test should not waive the DMV test.

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Also in response to OP, the DMV test in CA is just as basic in comparison to the CMSP training except it focuses on very arbitrary "skills". I've watched multiple videos on youtube and outside of riding in a tight circle and doing the slalom, the rest of the test is a joke and I would say leaves riders more vulnerable if they relied solely on the skills they test on.

Surj and others, you are 100% correct, the MTC is NOT enough. I don't know anyone that believes it is all the training one needs to ride a motorcycle safely in real world traffic.

The course is a huge compromise. Given the time constraints, it does fairly good, but it could always do better.

I suggest that anyone that has expertise make suggestions to improve it. Just realize that adding something means taking away something already there because of the time constraints.

As the the MTC providing a waiver for the DMV riding test, I have ridden the DMV riding test before and for anyone that can ride, it is a total joke of a test as it barely tests any skills and certainly does not test any skills really relevant to riding in traffic.

IMO MTC requires more skills to pass than the DMV riding test does but I am biased as as an instructor and as an experienced rider that does not see a lot of value in the DMV test so take it for what it is worth.

Steph (OP) and any other new rider, my offer is always open to work with you and help you be a better rider in any way I can.

stephanotis said:

Damn, you guys all ROCK!!! Every bit of this helps a lot, thanks sincerely!

PS: My copy of Proficient Motorcycling is in the mail :->>

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:thumbup:thumbup

I'm going to disagree with a need for substantially more training than that provided by MTC (and MSF previously) in order to become a capable street rider.

OP: There are three crucial skills you need to ride a motorcycle: 1) LOOK where you want to go; 2) countersteer to turn; and 3) progressively squeeze the front brake lever to slow down. These don't transfer from driving a car or riding a bicycle and are most effectively acquired with training. Other skills are required too--such as balance and throttle/clutch actuation--but the Big Three are what you need to get around town safely.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should re-take the class and make sure you come away with a solid understanding of those ideas, even if you haven't yet mastered them physically. Then what you need is lots of practice so you can use them without thinking about them. Get your license, get a motorcycle, and take Two Wheel Tramp up on her offer to help you with parking lot practice.

Most of the skills we talk about here on BARF are really attitudes and mental skills that, IMHO, can't be taught in a classroom. Some you can learn from books, videos, and--yes!--BARF discussions. But mostly you pick them up one by one with years of experience.

DataDan said:

...IMHO, can't be taught in a classroom. Some you can learn from books, videos, and--yes!--BARF discussions. But mostly you pick them up one by one with years of experience.

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Thanks for your opinion DD but books and video can not fully replace human interaction. Especially with questions from a mind and knowledge such as yours.

As you know there is no such thing as multitasking. A human brain can only process and exert either a mental or firing a physical process one thing at a time.

Yes mastering the physical position is important but in my experience that is the easiest part. As some past instructors has stated that it is simple enough that you can train a monkey to do it.

I my perspective 80% of learning to survive on a public road is a mental portion and the rest is on the physical side but that is where the problem may lie. Students that graduated a course and is eager enough to just on a bike irregardless of its size and will use the majority of their brain processing capacity for operating the motorcycle as opposed to creating or systematically adapting to quickly use their brain to switch back and forth between riding judgement and countersteering.

As you and I know there are different kinds of learners. Some are visual and others are more physical and offering other avenues to expand and understand the importance and requirement to safe on the street is invaluable.

Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.

That's the kind of invaluable shit all learners need. Then maybe they can be broken down by learning style and approach that concept from whatever angle works for them.

Videos, books, road time, getting help from experienced riders & BARFing. On it!!!

stephanotis said:

Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.

That's the kind of invaluable shit all learners need. Then maybe they can be broken down by learning style and approach that concept from whatever angle works for them.

Videos, books, road time, getting help from experienced riders & BARFing. On it!!!

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You are getting it but the physical portion is only limited to just riding, turning, and eyes up concept but how about evasive techniques and emergency braking.

It is easy to say ride your ass off to gain experience but I feel it is naive to just read a book on how to swerve correctly then this somehow will be osmosis to the brain and become mental.

As human it is very easy to say, "yes I will practice and do better" but as history has shown peer pressure and ego takes over a new rider and that the mental portion has to make a choice when it comes to a turn at a more aggressive speed that you can handle.

Which portion of the mental scheme did the brain use up it's processing power. Focusing on getting the turn right to prevent loss of traction or adjusting your focus to prepare for possible hazards around the turn.

It is a double edge sword. Even us instructor, particularly myself constantly practice evasive maneuvers to eliminate and make this the unconscious competent level on the competency scale.

Outta Control said:

You are getting it but the physical portion is only limited to just riding, turning, and eyes up concept but how about evasive techniques and emergency braking.

It is easy to say ride your ass off to gain experience but I feel it is naive to just read a book on how to swerve correctly then this somehow will be osmosis to the brain and become mental.

As human it is very easy to say, "yes I will practice and do better" but as history has shown peer pressure and ego takes over a new rider and that the mental portion has to make a choice when it comes to a turn at a more aggressive speed that you can handle.

Which portion of the mental scheme did the brain use up it's processing power. Focusing on getting the turn right to prevent loss of traction or adjusting your focus to prepare for possible hazards around the turn.

It is a double edge sword. Even us instructor, particularly myself constantly practice evasive maneuvers to eliminate and make this the unconscious competent level on the competency scale.

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Referring to the Four Stages of Competency, more information can be found here for those interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

Smash Allen said:

Referring to the Four Stages of Competency, more information can be found here for those interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

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:thumbup


I prefer this explanation since it include the 5th level:

http://www.drillscience.com/dps/competence4stages.pdf

You know rarely even MotoGP guys stay at the Unconscious Competent for long as they mostly stay on L4 and briefly move up to L5.

stephanotis said:

Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.

That's the kind of invaluable shit all learners need. Then maybe they can be broken down by learning style and approach that concept from whatever angle works for them.

Videos, books, road time, getting help from experienced riders & BARFing. On it!!!

Click to expand...

That's why I kind of stand by my suggestion of starting on a scooter, or a grom if you really want to involve gear shifting. Many of the riding skills as far as braking, swerving, countersteering, etc can be accomplished on a scooter and when you're comfortable with that the move up. My GTS 300 may not have the same horses as a Kawi 300 or R3 but the engine capacity is the same. I was probably in the same boat as you until I started taking my Vespa out on long rides and not just around the town jumps. Getting that thing going fast on Bayshore Blvd or El Camino or Hwy 1 and really "understanding" what countersteering felt like and not having to worry about shifting gears made me just a touch more comfortable when I got on a motorcycle. Then I "shifted" (pun intended) my concentration to starting, clutch/throttle control, braking, etc.

DataDan said:

OP: There are three crucial skills you need to ride a motorcycle: 1) LOOK where you want to go; 2) countersteer to turn; and 3) progressively squeeze the front brake lever to slow down. These don't transfer from driving a car or riding a bicycle and are most effectively acquired with training. Other skills are required too--such as balance and throttle/clutch actuation--but the Big Three are what you need to get around town safely.

Click to expand...

stephanotis said:

Here's a VERY important concept I'm getting from all this, and please correct me if I'm off here: The mental is never intuitive (or never assume it is or will be), so once the physical becomes intuitive, the mental can get all the attention it deserves. And it deserves A LOT.

So: Practice off the road to get the physical down and then practice the mental for the rest of your life. CMSP and other basic courses give the physical and initial inklings of the mental. The tests are pretty much all about the physical.

Click to expand...

Steph, I've quoted Dan above to make sure you see what he wrote.

Similarly to what he said, the California Superbike School developed a safety course for the Marine Corps several years ago that was meant to address motorcycle related deaths among Marines. They found that the leading factors in the crash scenarios were a failure to see the threat, a failure to steer effectively or a failure to brake effectively.

I'm unclear in your comments above about what you consider the mental vs. physical skills. I can definitely agree that some aspects of riding are counterintuitive, including steering. The more correct repetition you get with these skills, the more reliable they become when something surprises you.

In addition to training resources people have mentioned, many riders have begun their riding career with the help of a trusted mentor. That was a significant help to me. I began riding relatively late at age 30. My early mentor was, oddly enough, the man who had been my high school math teacher. I had looked up to him in several ways as a kid and we happened to reconnect around the time I began riding. If there is someone like that in your life, you might consider seeking their guidance.